[Chaos]

Trexmaster » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:43 pm[/url]"]Summoner as it stands isn't specialized at all.

Base Classes are foundations, not specializations. Why should Summoner be treated differently just because it has an additional factor that it revolves around? If this was Grand Summoner we were talking about, then sure, I would say that it needs this kind of adjustment. But it isn't; there is no real reason as to why this kind of railroading should exist on something that would basically be in an introductory course; why should they be forced to go into specialization when they're just trying to learn the basics to begin with?

[Jay]

There's nothing balancing about cutting the Summoner class' gimmick just because you think they "master" everything, when they don't.

Point is, you can't pick and choose everything to your heart's desire. If you still can't understand my context of gaining full mastery of all affinities from 2 SP, then we'll drop that altogether.

Every Evocation has major disadvantages to them, which have already been stated multiple times.

You're free to provide proof rather than repeat the same point. But actually, if you look over a good chunk, many evocations don't have apparent disadvantages. And if you want to call 'FP' management a disadvantage for everything, then I disagree for the nth time.. so we'll drop that altogether. If you do not think some don't have disadvantages, look over the three evocations for a youkai like Wawa, or compare the holy damage you actually receive from installing DW. At ten youkai slots, you have access to thirty evocations at the cost of 2 SP. And what if you want to contract a youkai without suffering from evocation passives and their 'major disadvantages'? You can't seem to do that without a specialization feature.

Balance is necessary when something may be OP to the point its unfair, but the majority of these skills hardly are that, and to even get them to do anything worthwhile, you need to spend time leveling your youkai as well as FP -and- youkai management in combat to use them effectively.

Some skills are ridiculously effective just by leaving your youkai at level one, because you can spam status effects. It has also been stated that the difficulty of raising youkai should not be a concern as to whether or not the class deserves reworking. Some people (including myself) can vouch that it takes no more than two training days of spamming summon storm to ascend your roster to at least level 50. Lastly, once again, you're rambling the same points that I have addressed regarding FP management. +15 FP a turn, Wawa's Evocation, and much more at your disposal. The FP upkeep formula is 5+(lv/5). Disregarding items, you can summon one level 50 youkai at zero expense and they can spam use a skill that'd otherwise cost you 50+ FP. And hey, you'd probably have a level 50 wawa to steal 25 FP on the side.

That's five youkai with 4 different affinities, which with this suggestion would cost 28 SP. And in turn would apply to other elements when more youkai come out. You shouldn't have to spend 29 SP just to properly use five youkai.

You should correct yourself where you assumed 4 affinities limited you to five youkai. If you choose to limit yourself to elementals, which isn't how youkai the mechanics are categorized, then you should make-do with whatever limitation you set yourself up for.

Anyway, if anymore counterarguments involve a player's choice to limit themselves, the trivial FP upkeep of summoning, or anything else we went over 'multiple times', then please just let this topic sit.

[Trexmaster]

Chaos » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:12 pm[/url]"]
Base Classes are foundations, not specializations. Why should Summoner be treated differently just because it has an additional factor that it revolves around? If this was Grand Summoner we were talking about, then sure, I would say that it needs this kind of adjustment. But it isn't; there is no real reason as to why this kind of railroading should exist on something that would basically be in an introductory course; why should they be forced to go into specialization when they're just trying to learn the basics to begin with?

It's about as much a specialization as choosing which weapon you're going to use as a Duelist. Summoners are different than all the other base classes--the only SP requirements as of now are sync-mind(2 SP) and install (3 SP), everything else is practically optional. Cracked mirror is just icing on the cake. I'd not consider this railroading them--all it means is that they have to choose which youkai's abilities they want, instead of being assured to get /all/ of them. This doesn't prevent people from learning the basics, they can still summon the youkai to full effect, all the sync-mind changes would imply is having to pick, possibly. Some people might not even be strained for SP depending on what youkai they pick, or what they invest their SP into.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

Just because you don't read/agree with the disadvantages when the disadvantages have been stated multiple times, doesn't make them any less valid.

You can argue 'what if I don't want the evokes of this youkai but want these' well youkai respectively are a package deal and that's like arguing not wanting DW's passive but getting Yukki-Ona's. They're both Night so regardless of what way it works you'd still have to deal with it. If you don't like their abilities, don't contract them.

And don't try to bring up Upkeep as a save face argument. At lv 60 it costs 17 FP which forces you to get Cracked Mirror, the GS innate, and the Capacity Talent / A witch hat just to maintain a youkai for no loss. That's already enough sacrificing on its own.

[Jay]

Just because you don't read/agree with the disadvantages when the disadvantages have been stated multiple times, doesn't make them any less valid.

What? At this point, you're falling back with pointless jabs again. I read and responded to these points so many times, and valid or not, I don't find them so. That's how opinions work.

You can argue 'what if I don't want the evokes of this youkai but want these' well youkai respectively are a package deal and that's like arguing not wanting DW's passive but getting Yukki-Ona's. They're both Night so regardless of what way it works you'd still have to deal with it. If you don't like their abilities, don't contract them

Wait, so you can bring up what-ifs regarding people's choice for elementals specialization, but I can't provide my own examples? Alright.

And don't try to bring up Upkeep as a save face argument. At lv 60 it costs 17 FP which forces you to get Cracked Mirror, the GS innate, and the Capacity Talent / A witch hat just to maintain a youkai for no loss. That's already enough sacrificing on its own.

Save face...? You kept rambling about FP costs from the get-go and I'm retorting those points. What? And now you're forced to grab an essential talent, an essential 5 SP innate, a basic staple for summoner, and a witch hat? If you hypothetically got a youkai to 60, you still have 15 innate FP regen from classes alone. I hope that 2 FP per turn isn't suddenly game breaking?

I'm just going to request this thread get locked. Three pages of back and forth, recurrent points, and enough fallacies to finalize the purpose. You've beat your points to death and I'm tired of regurgitating mine. We'll see how these next two classes turn out and Dev's verdict on the base class. Hopefully there's enough information here to influence something.

[Slydria]

Thread locked upon request.