[Tana]

hey

a few days back, I approached a gm about blowing up a small bridge that led to an overlook which had no purpose other than to be a spot for people to hide their petkit pets to spy on us with no rp. i was told i would have to announce the action with a ping, put up an LFG, and wait for a response. i agreed this was fair, and decided to wait for proper rp to take place before going through with it. the other night, close to midnight in fact, a few geladynian characters had a similar idea with a much more strategically important bridge. by the time we found out ic, it was already down.

getting back to the pets, though. did you know they don't make trees see-through? when this was brought to gms, we were told to handle it ic. we did, rping killing the critters. multiple times, in fact, the things giving taunting rps that there would be more and more of them no matter how many were killed. when this was brought up to gms, we were again told to handle it ic, by catching the perpetrator. this was done after one of ours risked pushing deep into geladyne territory to confront the culprit. then more people started to do the same thing, leaving us unable to talk freely in our own rp hub without having to right click behind every tree tile.

i believed the claim some make that the sl2 community is far less grimy and far more accommodating than other byond games. but grime isn't just meta ganks or lolslays. it's doing things to fuck over characters and groups with as little actual interaction as possible. it's not showing respect to other players because of their current ic entanglements and allegiances. after the first unannounced tax raid, i approached the organizer in dms, respectfully. someone who was the first person i really met here since the korvara update started and is a good part of why i stuck around when so many other new players were leaving. they agreed to give us notice if something like that happened again. and then didn't, with the first thing they said when rolling up the second time being 'scene lock'. it really hurt.

i have the same dream as i feel many others do. to weave a narrative together with the cooperation of many different people, incorporating their viewpoints and unique stories together without ego or spite spoiling the experience. i enjoy the current plot. immensely, in fact. but when the build up has been so disrespectful, i dread thinking of how much worse it might be later on. henrik thinking the border issue was solved but then being informed that they weren't recognized since no in person meeting happened within a week span was heartbreaking. then being called out with less than a day's notice. from what i know, the player is a freshman in college. it's as though him and everyone else is being punished simply because of real world priorities. why only him, and not other leaders?

i just want everyone to respect each other's experiences. that's all.

Uh, as the only person who was using a pet kit at all, I have logs very clearly showing there were no 'taunting rps', and the one time it was actually taken out, I kept it down for a full real life hour and a half. Also only kept it to two places that were realistically visible from the watch tower I was at, but due to game mechanics, can't see that far. (The stairs north of the one Geladyne outpost, the cliff overlook by Beggar's Hole). Dunno where all of that is coming from?

[HaTeD]

hey

Uh, as the only person who was using a pet kit at all, I have logs very clearly showing there were no 'taunting rps', and the one time it was actually taken out, I kept it down for a full real life hour and a half. Also only kept it to two places that were realistically visible from the watch tower I was at, but due to game mechanics, can't see that far. (The stairs north of the one Geladyne outpost, the cliff overlook by Beggar's Hole). Dunno where all of that is coming from?

[Tana]

Yep, that was a full day before what was actually being talked about, and was used in that particular instance to set up some RP, unlike having to cover realistic sight-lines because people want to bumrush a spot on the map to norp destroy things.

Since the topic brought up NPCs and informing people beforehand of things, it cuts both ways when people are looking for a chance to do the exact same, except in a way that'd be pushed to be a 'permanent change' versus a few non-hostiles showing up and saying 'give us a small amount of money'.

The ultimate problem is how everyone wants things to be done hyper-fast. If people having busy schedules is a problem, then stretch things out so you don't need someone standing guard at a spot 24/7 to prevent rushed RP. Just a little respect for everyone's time would again, be good both ways.

[Poruku]

We wanted to be antagonistic and not immediately killed off by the community who openly hate anything that has to do with conflict. This whole issue is a clear example of why conflict on SL2/Korvara is garbage. It is not just the rules but also the community who grew up on a game that rarely had any 'true' conflict where they were forced to accept the consequences.

There was no consequences if nobody wanted any.

That sole reason is the bane of this entire continent. Everyone can just push away from conflict or 'force' conflict by putting an app in to an admin and type out an essay about why X, Y, or Z deserves to be killed/robbed/etc.

It is clear that a good amount of the community do not know how to handle it.

As someone who has been playing antagonists for a long time on sl2, I'd like to respond to your points on conflict. This deserves its own thread but I am going to take this opportunity because you brought up multiple things I have strong opinions about.

First of all, Beggar's Hole clearly deviated from its original purpose. They are not an antagonist faction. Which is fine. Now I'd like to respond to your (correct) assessment of the state of conflict.

SL2 isn't a pvp game, it's a roleplay game. It is more centered on (see: favorable for) people's own character stories and their relationships, helped by the occasional event that puts these relationships in a situation to keep things moving and interesting. The strength of this game and community is not war, it is not conflict. It is variety and freedom or just vibing and rping with random people and doing your own thing. The people here are tied to their own way of writing. They want a playground, they don't want others to disrupt their plans. They want things to go their way, they want to win. They do not want their character to die or lose, because it would go against the idea they have in their head of the story.

Despite my gripes, I have learned to accept it. Conflict in this game exists to spur people's stories forward. The rules of consent exist to create that setting where people are free to play (sometimes) rich characters with complex relationships that evolve, with the OOC safety of knowing they will probably be ok as long as they don't do anything like capital crimes. And also play a "main" character and just vibe and rp for very long periods of time, developing relationships with people and being well known without fear of death. Most people on here aren't looking to do pvp and risk everything.

And as an antagonist? It's brutal. You are the one "bad guy" going against 100 "good guys" (who are used to that being the opposite from media!) and if you lose you might lose your character while normal people are fine since they can't be forced into death or anything. Being a real "bad guy" in this game is ultimately a punitive endeavor, but one I've come to love. I just wish people were more open to consequences. I really do. But I also understand. For instance, I wouldn't want a big antagonist to die to some schmuck before their plans came to fruition! So the rules also protect us... It's all about finding your crowd. There are people out there who are open to conflict. Shoutout to my main man DBKaw who got shrekt like 3 times and homegirl Hoot who is always down for some pain and ganks and died twice. Absolute joy to antag them and many others.

So... I completely agree with your points.

And I still play this game because this is where I get the best rp I've ever seen, and I love the people of this community despite all their pitfalls and the drama and all the recurring issues. But perhaps most of all, subconsciously, I absolutely adore mechanical pvp! I hope you find your home, because there's nothing wrong with leaving when this isn't what you seek. I believe in a future for SL2 where conflict will be decent. Until then, I will be content with having mediocre conflict, good pvp, and amazing rp.

But yeah, BH is not an antagonist faction. Hell, your bandit was not an antagonist in the first place, just a guy challenging people to pvp. "Oh boy, here come these guys again haha they're gonna say the line!". There was no weight to it besides it being a meta joke and a form of protest. When you play a joke, what do you expect? The current BH people take it seriously. They are far from a joke. They have a whole thing, a whole community, ideals and IC stories and motivations. So although you aren't wrong... Clearly this game is not for you.

[Lolzytripd]

Why can't you all do reasonable scouting with your pet kit like me instead of this all seeing all hearing psychic connection that's being complained about.

My pet is a trained bird, its trained to recognize a handful of people my character knows, and will happily lead anyone that interacts with it back to Mihai.

[Dezark]

Alright after taking the time to read over each post and take consideration on things, i'm gonna try my best to give my full response on it atleast with how I see it, and I apologize for not being able to do the reply proper and set it up with quotes from each thing as my skills are lackluster on that, but I will try to add my own little tacks for each thing I'm addressing personally..

First and foremost, I'd like to say that from the beginning with the consent bandits to Beggar Hole slowly rising to it glory over time, I love it all greatly. I've had a few ups and downs in opinions with how some things are handled and, due to atleast my past experience with some individuals through the years playing SL2 since I first began (about 3/4ths into 2014) I've typically kept to being cautious when roleplaying with a large amount of the community at first but that for every new person I've met and got to known through roleplaying, it made moments on SL2 my fondest memories from bit to small and that I love seeing both the serious and peaceful moments, especially so with our antags. As it was said playing an Antag will always leave you with what is a target on your back and it something not alot are fond of, but even so there is so much appriciation felt to anyone who willing to take a chance as antags big and small, and to those who do and to the community as a whole; I thank you for giving a wonderful enviroment and experiences over the years. 

Alright moving onward from that I'mma try to go down things and just try to share my view and opinion on it to the best of my ability..

- Contact OOCly & ICly

So this is.. quite the subject let's be honest.. and after seeing the different opinions and thoughts people have had, and more so what Dev had to say, I understand well on both sides. As someone who apart of the community and who honestly has put people through this just as much as they've been given in return.. it feels as a matter that you can never quite win. To address the shorter first, I do understand with where dev came across especially with the knowledge known ICly that giving more reach out; while I don't expect this, could lead into issue that, while it would be great for a proper 8v8 match, it gives the fuel needed in some degree for people to come by in masses from one side specifically.. and like I said I don't expect that cause after interacting with the community on highs and lows, people at the end of the day have respect for the other; and even if they come in droves to specifically support one side; it won't be as something that someone will go out of their way to use as their advantage, but in the eyes of the opposing side there a fair understanding how it might depending on the steps taken or how it follows.

Now to speak for the other side, it does help to have those ready and able to respond yes when you have an idea of what time something going to go down; yeah. If it were me in the situation i'd prefer to be able to give people a heads up both as so they have active time to swap over and just be present, and to encourage more RP on that matter.. and honestly; my only suggestion is, if the sides do work on contacting each other, to the side being approached have something of a limit set up, so that your aware of a "general" number of folk that are coming and leave something of a reaction to the notice so x number of people can step forth with the ideal of "I'll help protect my home against the IRS!" while the rest are the moral support and witnesses on this, and than just keep note of who stepped up for conflict 1 so when conflict 2 comes around the protectors allow others of their home to aid in helping, just as a way so that while no one aware of who coming by, it allows for both sides to not look at someone fighting style and than specifically aim to develop a counter toward them while just allowing those interested but shy or nervous of stepping up to give it a shot while they're being cheered on by the people who are the veterans of combat, so even if it a win or lose situation it gives them experience both OOCly and ICly and allows them to grow as a player and character equally.

- Scene Locking

This is thankfully a subject I have less to say, and it been given mostly clarification by others behind their feelings both why they're for and against this, so I won't have too much to say with any luck. In no way do I personally enjoy the idea of scene locking to purposely prevent someone from stepping into a situation even if they're only there to watch and give moral support. Yes, they missed out on the chance of RP and while it isn't great; it isn't something that should really be brushed off either. I will say upfront that it gave some conflict giving the following especially when the approach that was taken might send someone away to fetch a important figure for the situation, and than lead to them getting turned away due to progression of the scene and being at a point that it seems unreasonable for them to be there; but I do understand it need as well. After being on SL2 for what coming up to be eight years now, I have seen situations go on, and people have oocly contacted another and had them join into a fight or situation because it wasn't being kept locked to prevent it and was a turning in fights before that might of been a loss otherwise, or just having someone conviently show up at the time of a critical situation especially in Korvara where that one person arriving can be either the shining light to the situation or the spelling of doom depending on who it is. This said I would like to see Scene Locking adjusted in some means as Dev and the GMs might see fit to better work with the situation on things, as currently the most this is really doing is preventing a large crowd from showing up over time when a scene begins and making people feel a mix of emotion be it frustration, anger, sadness, or even just stress given it.

- Pet Kit Usage

This is by far the easiest for me to comment on in biting in the butt as seen what been mentioned, and responded in return on as a whole. So first and foremost.. PLEASE do not use pet kits to actively spy on someone, I understand the uniqueness of pets have grown with people, I've even used unique ones myself, but I do feel there needs to be a limit to what we can and shouldn't do with the pets themself. To go off what imotep said firstly as the positive, Pet kits give us a unique ability to openly reach out to the world as not our player, but instead as an animal who actively seeks to do what in their nature, be it a stray cat who wishes to be petted or chase rats in town, to a dog who trying to find someone to play fetch with them or even just a curious bird, lizard or other animal that fits the situation, these are things that we are trusted with to do and achieve with our pets. As for the negative, one thing that as shown given Korvara state as not being anything that specifically loads into a new map, we are able to stretch these creatures out VERY far from where we are; and I will say that there is a positive and negative to this depending on how the player uses this trusted ability granted to them. On the surface this can be very useful for things such as messenger birds specifically, or even a stray animal that you might see around the town on occasion as mentioned above. The full issue in this comes when the freedom of pets people are given are taken to terms such as a pet created via the focus of the owner, or that is connected to that focus; or the more commonly used troupe of magical talking animals. So to address the second before I talk on the first, if you can play off your pet being able to physically speak common fluently; than a fair risk I believe should be set up on that is someone trying to actively capture this animal, take into account it species, size and what it physical ability is in term of speed (so to say, your typical tabby cat is likely a sleek and slender breed and is on the smaller side, and cats are typically known for being limber and able to squeeze into or past certain things due to their physical structure as example; given we've all seen how cats are, so presuming you have say three people who are actively trying to catch this animal, you'll do a d20 roll similar to the flee rules; with a negative modifier affecting what the animal might be able to do in term of it escape and the fact that if three people are trying to catch a smaller animal, it likely to lead to someone running into the other or getting in the way, etc. We'll do two scenarios here; the first addressing that you caught the animal, you can take the time to question it while you have it in your hold; and try to get what information you want ICly on it; such as who sent them or who their master is, and use the information your given you can either keep the animal locked up for a set amount of time as to not lead to the point of making the pet kit useless, presuming you were given the needed information; send word to the owner to give the animal back in return for something of equal value, be it murai, a item, etc. (This is to prevent someone from capturing a pet and than demanding they tell you nation secrets or something; cause i'm sorry no matter how much Waldo matters to me the risk of a head rolling and that animal being killed off for breaking isn't worth it.) Or just let it go and given it magical property of speech as it is, allow it to take a message back personally to prove a point that no matter what magical creature they use, you'll be prepared while also allowing you to get word that you want back to the sender without risking the chance of becoming a skyrim guard and being able to say "I used to be a consenting fellow just like you, than I took a arrow to the [insert bodypart here]."

Now I feel like I have to say this now cause while I whole heartedly trust the community to a point, and I know it'll be joked about even after.. obviously do not use the idea of this to only send extremely tiny animals, or large ones you believe no one will be able to hold or find to go with. I don't care if Charlotte your favorite spider and your angry that someone just stepped on them cause "holy crap a talking spider" or that Wilfred the horse is "too fast and powerful to be contained by them!" be sensible with this stuff, you know the rules as it was on Sigro, you know that just because we're in a new land it's not all suddenly out the window, common sense.

Now in the concern of pets whom are focused base.. I'm looking specifically at those who summon youkai, papilions with their insanity butterflies, and any other classes that have the ability to actively summon something, I'm mainly listing this as both as a recommendation and a suggestion for the ruling to come regarding Pet Kits after the discussions here.. but while I do feel it good to let people have their special pets for the situation, please set a respective limit on how far they can go. No youkai, or anything that fueled by and maintained with the focus of another should be able to reach outside a certain radius; because eventually they'll lose their supply of focus from the caller and will either shut down (engi bots) or disappear (summons, youkai, etc. that are given form via the player's focus). Now atleast for one of these two, not counting engineer robotic creations unless someone specifically tries to install a walkie talkie or radio on them (which we don't quite have as it is..) I can understand if a youkai speaks with you mentally given your contract and connection, but I imagine there two things on that; which is they more than likely don't have the best form of common and can't form full words for it, and the father they move out (at most say the stretching of a spacey battlefield) the connection between you both is strained, and neither can hear the other that well, let alone maintain the connection without draining your body of focus or losing the connection all together causing them to retreat. The other summoning abilities I can't really give much pass to "hearing" what they can as the same issue drives from that.. your likely draining your focus to keep something maintained for a larger amount of time than usually done (Given that most things you create/summon; only last for a few turns at most due to it not being something that was created in a stable enviorment for it to last proper off a consistent amount of focus) and will have the same listed issue, while it might not drain your focus as clearly as a youkai would when maintained, the connection you have to it; given most are limited to sight and perhaps hearing; would strain the connection; basically in the same sense the quality of a video drops to the point it unwatchable; I feel giving them a limit on how far they can travel and based on that distance how well they hold up should be something as a RP rule for pets kits. This is just so if someone wants to take the risk of something to better see/hear/etc. they have to physically bring them closer even at risk. I don't know the actual logs regarding the "taunting comments" from the pet that was made mention of, and in term of my standpoint I'm going to continue at that as I'd rather not step on toes and keep to looking upon it at both sides for as much as I can.

- ALTS

This one I will try to keep shorter I promise I'm sorry for typing up a possible wall at this point, I just wanted to give address to everything I read to the best of my abilities. Alts have been as bready put it, a blessing and a curse in every sense of the word; we all make alts, we've all had altism at one point or another and some handle it better than the rest. (I don't in the slightest) That said, I've done my best for what I can to look at the characters I've made and actively leave it to where they're either kept in a minor spot, active spot, or a major spot; typically leaving the major spot to one character whom would be the one that is heavily active and in a position that requires them to be able to respond to things and be around more commonly than others, for myself the example being Evelynn; whom took over the Enforcer position little under a month ago. The active characters and minor characters are easy to understand i'm sure as I've given slight mention to it in the past so i'm skipping straight to addressing the matter on hand. If there is something major going on, I understand if you want to play a certain character more than the other but from as someone who suffers with altism and the want to make interactive characters for basically every situation; I suggest talking with your community and checking ahead of time if there anything major going on that day, be it training, a festival, beach party, funeral, wedding, etc. so that you can take note that at some point, be it you know when it happening or not, you can decide than and there if it something you want to be apart of and put your day exclusively toward that character. Do whatever your able and wish to on the side with your fellow community as you go but any grinding or general rp you might want to have your other characters do will still be available toward the end of the day, but you need to be able to know when you want to have someone be there in a major moment and when your ready to accept that because of whatever the situation might be, your unable to.

Okay that covers everything I actively wanted to go over, I greatly apologise to you all for how much I wrote on this and I want to thank you personally for reading it over, skimming it or just skipping right to the end cause you don't really care what some rando like myself had to write. I just want to say that I hope workin together and taking the time we can help each other grow as a community and actively thrive and continue to branch out with ideas like Beggar Hole, the Consent Bandits, Saw's crazy antag's and company, and even Fairview who took the time to continue what was left off with the first steps and actively try to make the slums of a merchant city into something of it own with time.. and to both players whom still play or quit and occasionally glance over these forums either for nostalgia or boredom, thank you for being apart of the community.

[FaeLenx]

Uh, as the only person who was using a pet kit at all, I have logs very clearly showing there were no 'taunting rps', and the one time it was actually taken out, I kept it down for a full real life hour and a half. Also only kept it to two places that were realistically visible from the watch tower I was at, but due to game mechanics, can't see that far. (The stairs north of the one Geladyne outpost, the cliff overlook by Beggar's Hole). Dunno where all of that is coming from?

A time honored tradition of SL2 drama threads is just outright lying about the details and then arguing something else when pointed out. It doesn't surprise me that there were no taunting RPs.

[HaTeD]

Uh, as the only person who was using a pet kit at all, I have logs very clearly showing there were no 'taunting rps', and the one time it was actually taken out, I kept it down for a full real life hour and a half. Also only kept it to two places that were realistically visible from the watch tower I was at, but due to game mechanics, can't see that far. (The stairs north of the one Geladyne outpost, the cliff overlook by Beggar's Hole). Dunno where all of that is coming from?

A time honored tradition of SL2 drama threads is just outright lying about the details and then arguing something else when pointed out. It doesn't surprise me that there were no taunting RPs.

Rolling? This is unnecessary. I also disappear before you can hit me, invalidating your action. I'll spawn again later.

Please stop trying to defend this. I'm doing my best to contain how upset this kind of interaction made me.

[FaeLenx]

"Rolling, this is unnecessary. Your attack is strong enough that it breaks it without trying."

That's not it bragging. That's just telling you that you could break the thing with a stiff breeze. It isn't a combatant. I don't know if you're arguing in bad faith or just really, really easily upset.

[HaTeD]

Broken things don't usually come back later. They're broke, and here they rp'd as disappearing. Clearly you're trying to change the narrative but it was clearly wrote here. Also? This is not your scene, step back. Wheres the supporting rp to these eyesballs? Wheres the application for this character ability? Telling me my roll for my own perspective is unnecessary? That is downright fucking disrespectful. Now please mind your own business, your own character interactions and your own scenes. You are not included in what happened above. That is me and Tana and I will let the truth be seen.