[Vanilla]

??? this isn't a new rule though. you've literally never been allowed to harass ppl or groups of ppl

[Snowman]

think the uh. general gist of it was that, specifically, there were cases of 'edgy/dark criticisms' of women that made folks uncomfortable.

hence that being singled out in the announcement to not. ykno. do that.

i think 'dont harass anyone' is pretty clear regardless. the specific situations that the announcement was concerning were specifically about women and lgbtq+ folk. hence them being mentioned.

not as a slight towards 'the other side'

whatever the other side of criticizing women is.

should've watched more sonic sez growing up

Yeah, probably. But I wasn't much of a sonic fan.

Either way, I understand the context. I just wished it wasn't worded the way it was. Thanks for the shrimple discussion, by the way, I do appreciate the info exchange.

---

I'll be honest, it's disheartening to hear that people have this little faith in the GM team. We pour a lot of time into making sure that the community is safe, and this announcement was a measure we had to take, with how frequent and comfortable people have become with making certain remarks against minorities and women.

If people cannot see the good intentions behind our actions and focus on the made up scenario of how we're going to start muting for no reason?

I don't know how to feel about that.

I'll be honest. The majority have faith in you. This quickly growing thread shows that. I'm simply a jaded person. I do believe you have good intentions. But like I said, sometimes mistakes can be made.

This critic isn't an insult you. I just want to make sure no else can have these feelings brew by clarity.

---

Homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, ableism, and all of the other -isms and hate of any kind don't deserve a platform.

I started typing out how I understand that GMs might start using this to punish something, but found that I couldn't reasonably finish that sentence in a way that made sense. Punishing edgy jokes? Punishing . . . Things you probably shouldn't be saying in a public forum? I think people (myself included, at times) get too comfortable saying things online that they never would in person, forgetting that there are other humans behind the screen. Not to mention that historically, the team has been overly lax in enforcing the rules, and players tend not to report whenever they're the victim of said behavior. People tend to get away with bad behavior for months until resentment builds, explodes, and sets the player-base on fire.

What I'm really wondering is what prompted the announcement in the first place. I know I'm terrible at keeping up with the goings-on of the community and I get a nice little shock at just how bad things can get every time #gm-ban-log lights up, but was there really rampant hate speech while I wasn't looking?

I'm not trying to make a platform for it if that's what your implying.

[Paa]

Personally I'm of the mind of that, if possible, this thread should get locked down as it's only going to lead to discourse in my honest opinion.

But anyway, more importantly I'm going to be frank and I'm going to be very short on this. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

The announcement was, just that, an announcement. All it simply was is making it aware of what has been clearly going down as I myself have been made witness to a few cases of it. In turn it should be made quite obvious however if sexism, racism, or whatever is made towards any other group not mentioned in said announcement? It'd be cracked down upon outright if not reportable by others. That's it.

[Snowman]

There are critiques of the community I can understand and endorse. There are lines in the sand in regards to accountability and transparency that should be upheld. But in all my time here I have never had the pleasure of reading a line so loaded. 

"What does criticism of Women mean?" 

What does muting the opposite side mean? Are we muting Women? 

You chose to request that Mutes should be posted into the GM Ban Log? Cool, that's reasonable. If you opened your post with that, I'd be able to understand and empathize with the request. 

So why would you open with the opener you did? What tactic did this spawn from? Were you reading the history books and decided that Alexander's false center would operate well on a forum post? You've certainly invited in the opposition, but what companion cavalry did you intend to outflank and surround them with? What hand did you intend to play? 

No I understand now, I read you fully. If you are called out for being a bigot, you'll just disengage and admit you're stupid as though that's a viable defense. But allow me to offer you some advice I was given by my wife, a Woman mind you.  Which would reveal the reality that I am in fact the other side, I am the "Woman Lover." and therefore I should also be muted. 

If you feel strongly about something, sometimes you should keep your mouth shut about it.

There is no tactic. There is no battle to be fought. I never wanted one to be had. I expected some patience with annoyance, sure. But do be this thoroughly insulted? Not really. Maybe I do deserve it, maybe I don't. All I care about is fairness about punishment and the clarity of it at the end.

I don't know what you think of me. But I won't abandoned my values because you think ill of me.

---

Personally I'm of the mind of that, if possible, this thread should get locked down as it's only going to lead to discourse in my honest opinion.

But anyway, more importantly I'm going to be frank and I'm going to be very short on this. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

The announcement was, just that, an announcement. All it simply was is making it aware of what has been clearly going down as I myself have been made witness to a few cases of it. In turn it should be made quite obvious however if sexism, racism, or whatever is made towards any other group not mentioned in said announcement? It'd be cracked down upon outright if not reportable by others. That's it.

That's probably for the best honestly. I doubt anything productive will be made.

---

Here's a secret - admins speak in a different language. A big announcement like this where they say they're gonna crack down on a particular offense? What it really means is that they've been lenient and it hasn't stopped. The admins were kind enough this time to provide a nice announcement clearly outlining what they're going to be punishing harder. Since, you know, that's what the problem is. So that, specifically, is what they're going to be focusing on. You get me?

Yes, certain demographics were mentioned in the announcement, and many more were not. When the demographics not mentioned in the announcement receive the same harassment and "humour" that was displayed in general chat, and there is a lack of response to it, you will be all justified in your belief that the announcement here is unfair.

However, that isn't what happened, and it isn't what will happen.

This isn't political. This isn't sexist or unfair. It isn't even unclear. The same rules apply to all - when you are harassed or unfairly treated, the GMs will step in-- this has been written down in the server and known to all through mere common sense for a long, long time.

Thanks for the explanation, actually. I'm not being sarcastic or anything. But a focus on the topic itself is actually a nice change of pace.

But nevertheless, I feel like more clarity should be given when they do make announcements. While it is fair I should've known of olden rules of such. I think it's bit of a high bar with how the wiki is in a somewhat state of disrepair. In fact, a edit should probably be made there.

---

Accountability for what? Stating an active issue within the community that they've been made increasingly aware of is not acceptable. Offering the warning to stop the behavior and the consequences that follows.

This is a discord community server. You know, a community server. A place where everyone should be able to feel welcomed in. A moderator or admin offering the announcement they did is clarity enough that things are going to far. There's a little bit of common sense when it comes too, you know looking down on others no matter the context of dark humor or whatever. Jokes and whatever are to make people laugh, not to be looked down upon with.

And dude, really. None of this had anything to do with politics. Treat people with a bit of respect no matter what race, background, gender, sexuality.

Accountability for power. I just wish for more clarity. I'm not against the whole muting thing. I just wish more was added to it.

And I will apologize for losing my head on this on the political side. I have real strong values if that wasn't noticed or so.

---

??? this isn't a new rule though. you've literally never been allowed to harass ppl or groups of ppl

With the Announcement made and the general lack of... Well, easy to find rule section. Some bits of info can be lost. But like some earlier replier said, yes, it is common sense not to harass people or groups. But do people not do it? Sadly, not. It's why I'm fine with this Announcement. I just wish it wasn't so casual.

[Maya]

Lack of... Well, easy to find rule section??

Homie there's a chat in the discord called server rules that links you to every other rule page.

[Snowman]

Lack of... Well, easy to find rule section??

Homie there's a chat in the discord called server rules that links you to every other rule page.

Wait, fr?

Why is it at the bottom?!

Guess I'm just wrong now? Huh, fair enough.

[Vanilla]

in case you're confused about why you're getting the responses you are, let me explain how what you've posted comes across.

now im not necessarily saying it's how you feel or what you're trying to say, im just saying how it looks

you've suddenly created a post when it's been made clear ppl can't be bigoted against women or lgbtq people and are talking about accountability. this is the first post if this nature you've ever made

you've talked about making sure right wing ppl are protected (noone brought up left or right wing politics)

you have talked about being personally offended by the unfairness/lack of balance

it is naturally going to look like the real issue is that you're upset that the community is being made a safer place for women and the lgbtq community, that intolerance and bigotry toward them isn't going to be tolerated. any 'balance' would naturally be a middle ground between acceptance and bigotry, which is completely unacceptable

there's no real lack of clarity in the announce, everyone else saw it for what it was and understood. it LOOKS like you're just upset that this doesn't fit with your own values

[Snowman]

in case you're confused about why you're getting the responses you are, let me explain how what you've posted comes across.

now im not necessarily saying it's how you feel or what you're trying to say, im just saying how it looks

you've suddenly created a post when it's been made clear ppl can't be bigoted against women or lgbtq people and are talking about accountability. this is the first post if this nature you've ever made

you've talked about making sure right wing ppl are protected (noone brought up left or right wing politics)

you have talked about being personally offended by the unfairness/lack of balance

it is naturally going to look like the real issue is that you're upset that the community is being made a safer place for women and the lgbtq community, that intolerance and bigotry toward them isn't going to be tolerated. any 'balance' would naturally be a middle ground between acceptance and bigotry, which is completely unacceptable

there's no real lack of clarity in the announce, everyone else saw it for what it was and understood. it LOOKS like you're just upset that this doesn't fit with your own values

My middle ground is just blocking every type of hate, and with how the Announce was worded it didn't seem to imply such? I know it's strange. But my brain does grow annoyed if a double standard is seemingly at play. But yeah, I won't lie this looks pretty bad from what you say. 

I'll honestly be fine if I get a temporary or a permanent ban for this tomfuckery I caused.

[Vanilla]

i've honestly never even seen anyone mention right-wing ppl in the disc, why was it even brought up?

[Maya]

Homie this ain't the hill to die on, nobody is thinking about banning you for this.