[Trexmaster]

I'd also like to add the fact that in RP, you don't know what level someone is, and if you're RPly giving someone either murai or items, you could easily end up breaching one or all of those conditions.

[Neus]

Zakizo; it's not hard to make a .txt, and again, if you're giving mountains of items to low level characters to the point where you can't remember, then that's the kind of thing we want to avoid. And if you're giving someone items RPly you should probably have a rough idea of what their level is. If you don't, you can ask. But the concern is noted and I will keep it in mind.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

Neus » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:34 pm[/url]"]And if you're giving someone items RPly you should probably have a rough idea of what their level is. If you don't, you can ask.

And what happens if they lie to you about their level or how many times they've LE'd?

[Ranylyn]

So I had a series of events today in which this new rule dicked me over.

- I bought an item (Jackhammer) on the wrong character, due to forgetting about this new rule and worrying someone else may buy it if I didn't nab it right away. So as such, I realized "Well crap, I just wasted over half my mura on an item I can't even use!" I took it up with a GM and I was told that I shot myself in the foot.

- I have a guild. A small one. I had been forgetting to invite three specific characters of my own to it, purely for IC purposes (day jobs, etc) and now I can't trade keys or guild invites between my own characters. And if I get someone else to do it, thay'll get in crap, too!

- A character I've been meaning to delete for some time (is boring for RP) has good gear. If I delete him, I lose a number of items I've never gotten on any other character, and due to Dev stating "no muling" in game, literally the only thing I can do is delete him and lose everything; I can't even just transfer it to someone to hold onto in case any other player needs it!


I followed the old rule. I really did. And this new one is ALREADY driving me up the wall. If twinking was really such an issue, couldn't we implement level requirements on gear or something? While I'm against this for RP purposes, it's still less of a headache than not being able to trade anything at all, ever.


If anything, it just makes me want to quit, due to the rarity of specific items, and the OUTRAGEOUS prices other players charge, it is now incredibly difficult to get gear that is crucial to a build. Using MG as an example due to their guns being so vastly different in terms of playstyle, you could very easily get to 60 without ever finding a single shotgun, which they specifically have a passive for. And the Yin and Yang are 800 arena badges each. Each!

[catabur]

OKAY, you losers.

The way I interpret this rule is simple: don't have your level 60 give your new character a bunch of good shit. Yeah, you're going to lose that shit, but that's supposed to happen when you create a new character and delete an old one. This also goes to giving twelve billion murai to some other character, becaaaaause you were going to get rid of the character anyway. This also applies to your FRIENDS, because that's twinking-by-proxy. It ain't right that you can have a rebelling weapon on your level 10, because your friend has an extra one. People twink, because it's easier to do than actually working up to that goal. You can talk all about how twinking was probably just against the rules in MMOs to get people to play the game instead of skipping certain sections, but whateves. It's mainly balance-related.

Unless, of course, it was all talked about beforehand. There was some freakin' laplaceNET request and your character manages to get it to the person and gets phat loot? That's all good. Freakin' saved them from big, scary black wolves? That's pretty cool, too.

I mean, technically the rules never CHANGED. They were just made more clear to the fine folks of SL2.

And it'd be hard to police new characters with friends due to your friend already being drawn to your character (probably), because they can trust you for the good RPz or whatever it is your kids do now. Just use your best judgement.

I mean, can you imagine a level 14 with 1 billion murai and every single weapon in the game? They'd be pretty encumbered.


That's my two cents. Or whatever.

[Lolzytripd]

you want a particular Item on a character,

A) go to the ic forum and make a request while also looking for someone who may have one for sale at a price you may or may not be able to afford, or just has one in general
B) when someone of the like appears , barter with them, sure you may not be able to afford it now, or maybe you can, but you could always go with, hay man, I will do oa favor/owe you a debt
C) enjoy your icly earned item in all its earnest,

eir

ALSO

question for dev, can we twink as in purposely twink , declare it to the world, if its purely ooc for something like damage tests or theorycrafting as long as the items make it back to their original owners?

[Trexmaster]

catabur » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:33 pm[/url]"]OKAY, you losers.

I was just going to leave this post here, since I didn't feel like debating a rule set by dev, but, might as well use this to voice my opinon.

The way I interpret this rule is simple: don't have your level 60 give your new character a bunch of good shit. Yeah, you're going to lose that shit, but that's supposed to happen when you create a new character and delete an old one. This also goes to giving twelve billion murai to some other character, becaaaaause you were going to get rid of the character anyway.

Okay, what? Very rarely do people -delete- the character in question. I'm not sure if this part is serious or not. Anyways, that's not the point. Generally, when people have a level 60 friend to help them out, they'll grind them to an appropriate level, then pass them the equipment they want. So, simply put, no, people don't do this to get rid of the character in question. Next point.

This also applies to your FRIENDS, because that's twinking-by-proxy. It ain't right that you can have a rebelling weapon on your level 10, because your friend has an extra one. People twink, because it's easier to do than actually working up to that goal. You can talk all about how twinking was probably just against the rules in MMOs to get people to play the game instead of skipping certain sections, but whateves. It's mainly balance-related.

Again, people mainly help grind them -then- give them these things. Also, I want you to look at that bolded sentence and think on it for a good minute and see if you can figure out how wrong that is. What difference does it make which character I do the work on? It's practically the same amount of effort for me, except now I have to get the item via RNG on a different character. I shouldn't be actively punished for not having the luck I need, or the friends with the luck I need to get what I want. As for skipping certain sections--most people who've done this have played through the grind at least a good dozen times. Going through the grind for the hundrenth time is beating a dead horse.

Unless, of course, it was all talked about beforehand. There was some freakin' laplaceNET request and your character manages to get it to the person and gets phat loot? That's all good. Freakin' saved them from big, scary black wolves? That's pretty cool, too.

Awesome, so, the exception is made if the RNG is really, really nice to me. That's great, in the freakish chance it ever happens. Odds are you'll be way past the level it'd be illegal to have an item at by the time you see them (beyond say, rebelling weapons from the jammer cave.)

I mean, technically the rules never CHANGED. They were just made more clear to the fine folks of SL2.

Actually, this is pretty new. Now that alt-trading is being hard-enforced by the game's coding, it seriously restricts people. I know it's hard for people without a lot of characters to understand (not saying you don't have a lot) but, when you're trying to build a character, you'll generally want to pass things around. Now that's impossible, and instead you need to pray a friend gets the drop you want, then gives it to you. The RNG is cruel.


------------

Twinking isn't an issue. 'Boosting', isn't an issue. In a game where you have infinite time to prepare a character before you play them RPly, what difference does it make in how long it takes you? Some people have an easier time with it because they have friends to help them, or are just savvy enough to get through quickly.

The restrictions on gear are entirely arbitrary, as rarity has -nothing- to do with how good an item is. Odds are a new player won't even see most of it until they're already in range for 9-star items, as the loot table will almost certainly drop them nothing but garbage, unless they farm low level cores.

And as for fast grinding? Who cares? Why should it matter how fast people get through the game? Just because you can't do it as quickly? Have you thought maybe there's a reason why people want to do it as quickly as they can? Personally, I have an extremely high backlog of characters, all of which I'd want, preferably, to be level 60, more than likely le'd multiple times so they'd be viable against other players, etc. I'm not the only person who does this, and this mindset isn't exclusive to people like me with a ludicrous amount of characters. Anyone savvy -hates- grinding, and of course, still want to participate in the game's....game (see: PvP) and in order to be effective...well...that requires grinding. A lot of it, usually, depending on how much the RNG likes you.

I've played your game more times than I'd like to count, Dev. Making my life and other's who wish to make new characters and have appropriate stats (which varies based on the person, but, recently what's considered appropriate has been going to rediculous levels, but, that's a community issue) isn't the way to go about making your game more fun. If you want people to enjoy your game for what it is, make the content more interesting to play through on the way to level 60. I and many others have made suggestions about this already. (link)

If you want people to go through PvE as you intended, make it so we don't want to claw our eyes out as we CM > Magi > WO > repeat through nearly every single battle, over a thousand times, because few other methods match that speed.

[Sarinpa1]

As agressive as it may come off, I wholly agree with what Trex said and don't have much to add. There have been many suggestios to make grinding less of a chore and I really think the future is in crafted permanent dungeons, random dungeons being just some sort of an added bonus. I know it sounds like tons of work, but...yeah.

[iDarkCara]

As usual I wanted to add in my two cents.

Your goal, from what I understand, is to get people to play the game the way you intended. But the problem with how you intended, is you let the game grow and the players learned how to play easier. So instead of Restricting login to one ip/cid at a time as in SL1. You decided to completely null anything to do with your other character. Because metagame, as you cited. Restricting login isn't the way to go. A lot of people have fun with having their alts on, roleplaying with other people or in a group with their other character. It creates dynamics that are neat. I understand you don't think other characters of yours should interact, and that's a valid point. I'm just stating the reason I enjoy seeing other people alt rp.

All of that is fine and understandable. I would also want others to play the game I intended. As the Gamemaster, I like to develop a world and sort of funnel players down the path I want them to take, not stray into elsewhere.

But you do not play the game. You make it and that's fine. You don't understand that the game isn't fun. I will do my best to explain why the game isn't fun. And offer a few suggestions that, in my opinion, could help the game's health as a whole. ------
-------------------------


First-

The grind. Many games use the grinding formula as a way to get further in an mmo style game. Even some non-mmo's use grinding. Grinding isn't the issue for twinking, but it is the issue for fun. No one likes grinding. It's repetitive and just gets dull after a while. Additionally, it has zero player influence. You don't get to choose to not grind because RP xp is a joke. Not only that, but you miss out on all the 'great gear' (b)and you are left with a level 60 who spent a month roleplaying to get there and no gear. You have to grind if you want to reach the goal, which in this instance, is top level. Stat grind is a whole 'nother behemoth i won't touch.

You want people to play your game and not grind through it in three hours, that's understandable. Some games use grinding due to the lack of game content. If the player experiences all the games content in a day, what makes them come back? That answer is not your game which you seem to think so, but the community. The roleplaying, the actual community. The life of the game you created. People don't quit because of the people. So cater to the people and you cater to the game.

That being said, grinding is unavoidable in this game as a mechanic. You don't have many other options. People grind for various reasons outside of just leveling up for example: Most players who level up want to get those rewards that are amazing and make it worth the grind. Your cores don't allow for that. 100% of the people who do grind your dungeons have a chance to get rewarded, while the top 20% realize that the game will never be a level playing field because no matter how hard you grind, it's all down to chance. Here, spend 5$ and you might win 1000$ Alternatively ,spend 400$ and you might have a better chance of winning $1000!

The solution in my opinion is to take the focus away from the grind. The path to the goal should be the way that is most fun. This isn't real life. It's a game. Make it fun, not a chore. Who cares if people want to use alts to grind their characters. THE GAME'S REWARDS ARE BASED ON CHANCE, NOT GRINDING. This leads into the rewards, which in this case, is the twinking issue.
------------------------

Second

Twinking. I one hundred percent believe people do not like twinking as a whole, but they don't mind it on a small scale.

In much larger games than this, twinking is dealt with through level walls, where you can't even go somewhere unless you're level x. Or you can't equip this legendary sword unless you're max level.

Your game is not large. Your game is small. You're preventing twinking through all these restrictions but you're also preventing creativity. Every player had the option of twinking and creating neat, strong, fun characters (illegal or not). Those who did, created characters that were interesting. They were dynamic because they already had the tools to make them what they want and looked to. Powergaming whores. BUT WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? It's fair because every player had access to it. It's fair because those who twinked their alts did so because they had the means of getting the chances that netted them the rewards. They created a dynamic character that was fun to see, fun to play with, and fun to play! In this community, you cannot restrict freedom in this way. You hurt your game's over all health. It's not inviting to newbies when "Yeah all my characters are level 60, go fight things, consult the wiki that is always helpful"

The mid-ground between the two points in my opinion is the solution.

You shouldn't have a restricting on parties. That's just making the grind harder and as I discussed in the first part, not fun. You should however, restrict the items. If you're so worried about a new character, or an alt getting a 9 star red letter, then slap a level restriction on rarity. Not completely ban any character from getting that. It is in no shape or form beneficial to limit parties when your community is roughly 130 active people where 30-80 are active at a time. It is in no shape or form beneficial to limit any item trading to a low level character rather it's yours or your friends when THE LEVEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RP OF THE CHARACTER. You're getting the two mixed too much in my opinion. You're thinking that by slapping restrictions on everything you're going to fix the game and play as you intended but the fact is your players have developed the game overtime. Not the actual code, but the mechanics. They have, and I hesitate saying this, created a meta. The casual player has no quarrel against any of these rules because they don't want to get to the end result. They do not care about min/maxing, powergaming, powerleveling. They just want to rp and play at their own pace. That's perfectly fine, but when you have PVP 90% of this game, you create this environment where the meta becomes norm. Where getting the most powerful character becomes the norm through any means. This is not true for the majority of the community, but more so the top 20% of those who have multiple characters. Those who are the antags, who create the fun of the game's conflicts that aren't your events where we have no actual say mind you...

-----------------
Final

You mentioned that catering to the players is not the way games should go. Something along the lines of "no big game listens its players". Big box games; your League of Legends, Runescapes, Guild Wars, Mable. They can afford to shrug off little suzie mae's complaint on balance. They won't lose anything. Your game, however, is not big. It's small. And to think otherwise is ignorant. You shouldn't bow to your players and take it up the rear, but you should actually take into consideration of what your 'top' players suggest. The players who have been playing your games for years. The players who report the bugs, offer suggestions, help other players. Your gms. Etc. Not just, 'this isn't intended. It's been fixed.' when it's been like that for a year.

Updates are great. Patches for bugs are phenomenal. New game content, races, classes, pvp, pve, rp mechanics. Fantastic! But when you try to fix something that isn't broken, you create a hostile environment. People have partyed with level 60's to grind their new characters up for months. The grind isn't the game. The community, the mechanics. That's the game. Please try not to get those confused. This is your game, granted. But these players are who care about your game and play it day after day and enjoy it because of what it offers. I realize you don't make a lot off of this, but don't kill your player base because it's not how you wanted. Listen to your players, respond to your players. Even the 'haters'.

Here, enjoy these.

“The questions are always more important than the answers.”

“You may not want to hear it, but your critics are often the ones telling you they still love you and care about you, and want to make you better. ”

"Just because you're in the driver's seat, doesn't mean you have to run people over.”
(R. Pausch)

[Zakizo]

Well said. And now I'll do my best to explain the strong points of the game itself, to make sure it's understood why so many people have stuck with the game as long as they have. Playing through the game is in no way fun, granted. Tinkering with the mechanics and PvP, and mix-matching classes are entertaining in their own right when done in moderation, but even they aren't what keep people here. These are the game's selling points:

• Physical representation of your character. The ability to build your character's appearance, and give a more visible effect to the things they do, which is something that's not as easily done in a text-based environment. Not to mention it's graphical eye candy. There's a reason why so many people make so many characters, but never finish grinding them.

• Face icons. These provide depth and feeling, making it easier to understand a character's tone and emotion (for characters that have FIs for this).

• A large selection of races. There are so many that it's hard to imagine someone would be unable to find one that they'd be satisfied playing.

• Lots of skills. Lots of ways to get inventive with them. Not quite as strong an argument as any of the former, but I couldn't possibly argue that it's a negative part of the game. It's a plus.

• Finally, of course, the community. What keeps people here most of all are the friends they've made.

The biggest thing people tend to care about in gaming is playing with friends, and due to conflicting schedules, levels, rewards, and statistical luck, SL2's system now makes that very difficult. Most people don't actually role-play until their character is "finished" by their standards. Many people helped others do that. Why? So that they could go ahead and RP with them sooner. But apparently that's unintended, and will be changed despite the vast majority (see: all?) of the most vocal members of your community saying that changing the way people have learned to progress through the game in the least frustrating way will crush the experience for them. Like Cara, I understand that as a developer it's understandable to want people to play the game how you intended... but your intention wasn't to make a fun game? It clearly wasn't to make a role-playing game, in any case. Anything role-play based seems to come second to ensuring the players have no level of control. I don't want to come off as hostile, but I can't see any other way to take this aside from your desire to have complete control over the players, rather than make sure they're enjoying themselves. And I cannot stress this point enough: Telling players to role-play on your game does not make the game itself a role-playing game. When you implement things like this that interfere with RP, making a role-playing environment is not your priority.

Don't take the portion of your community that's willing to talk to you for granted. Not listening when everyone disagrees with you doesn't make you the smart one, it just makes you look stubborn.