[Ryu-Kazuki]

You'll all have to excuse me, I just got home from a 4 hr drive and need to catch up.

@Ranlyn, please stop using growths as an argument (I'm not trying to be mean, I'm legitimately asking nicely), it's always a class dependant thing and doesn't always offer the best in terms of anything. The tide of combat can easily be shifted based on racials, skills, or anything; stats don't rule the game entirely. Just because someone has good growths doesn't mean anything. You could have the worst growths in the game, but if an amazing racial counter-acted that, it's balanced. Going, "well they shouldn't get any balance because this stat can go above 100%!" isn't an argument, it's just pointing out they're meta for one style of class instead of decent as a race. As for racials being class dependant, that's fine to an extent, but the entire race itself shouldn't be a stereotypical meta; reasons like that are why the races don't get played that often because they either aren't good all around, or aren't pleasing with their abilities. Plus, this is a ability thread, not a growth thread.

As for Phenexes, anything that isn't 100% would suit; seeing as even keeping your FP at 100% would almost never happen, making the ability almost never used and more like something that laughs at you than helps you. Plus, it's not different, in fact less powerful than a Pre-Hi Potion, which costs you no FP and 3M to use. So for a 0M cost, you lose your FP and get less HP than you might have with the potion for the same cooldown duration. It's not that powerful if you take it into consideration. Plus, I said in the edited version of the first post, 75% could also be a fair estimate for change. 90% is far too much, the most I'd go for is 80%, but that's still stretching it. Even with the FP management you mention, it has a 10 turn cooldown before it can be used again, meaning you have to stay alive and pray to God you can survive those 10 rounds before it activates.

@Sderg, yeah I can kind of agree with humans, but it also makes them a bit more pleasing, helps the economy in some manner, and makes people like the idea of craftsman characters a bit more. Masterworks will be more exclusive to humans, and it would benefit whomever they sold the items to. But I only focused on natural forms of crafting, because I don't think alchemy and enchanting existed until the gods came around.

Your Arcane Shield idea is great, but I thought of adding an alternate option for the "slowness" by making it -10 CEL instead of -25 evade (since 1 CEL = 2 evade, it'd still be -20 evade, and also actually slow them down). I'll slap that up on the first post with both options for reduction. Also, to compensate for Lady Lightning; perhaps recasting Arcane Shield while active gives you 50% of the FP you spent on it back, but dispels the skill.

I'm not so sure on Focus Weave though, because it'd then devalue what Zerans currently even have for their abilities. If they got something to improve what they currently have, I'd be more likely to agree; unless you want to think it should extend their enchanting spells by 1 round instead (would be a max of 5 rounds with auto-enchant and r2 enchanting talent).

[Rendar]

-10 CEL seems fair enough, giving all around 'clunkiness' which makes it slightly worse than being an actual human being, but it does allow Liches to be somewhat viable. I would prefer if you win a fight with Arcane Shield up, it sticks to your person, or atleast gives you all of the level of it back. Possibly having it be an 'auto enchant' option for a TP that auto-does it at the start of a fight if you don't have the status effect already, as a toggle.

Focus Weave was to give +1 to the crafting skill, and is more than likely to be used in conjuction with a Zeran buff because lets be honest. Zerans are bad, but Liches are god-awful and their things are literally "Well you're going to die. Might as well not lose your shit for it that much."

[Ranylyn]

Ryu-Kazuki » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:53 pm[/url]"]You'll all have to excuse me, I just got home from a 4 hr drive and need to catch up.

@Ranlyn, please stop using growths as an argument (I'm not trying to be mean, I'm legitimately asking nicely), it's always a class dependant thing and doesn't always offer the best in terms of anything. The tide of combat can easily be shifted based on racials, skills, or anything; stats don't rule the game entirely. Just because someone has good growths doesn't mean anything. You could have the worst growths in the game, but if an amazing racial counter-acted that, it's balanced. Going, "well they shouldn't get any balance because this stat can go above 100%!" isn't an argument, it's just pointing out they're meta for one style of class instead of decent as a race. As for racials being class dependant, that's fine to an extent, but the entire race itself shouldn't be a stereotypical meta; reasons like that are why the races don't get played that often because they either aren't good all around, or aren't pleasing with their abilities. Plus, this is a ability thread, not a growth thread.

I'm sorry, but there's absolutely zero logic in dismissing growths, and an amazing racial won't make up for pathetic stats. Let me offer a class skill vs growth example of why:

Ghosts are largely considered by many to be the definitive "worst" class for their growths alone. However, they also have Wraithguard, which triggers more frequently with high Res and Luc, both of which the ghost has in spades; it's tied for the highest Luc growth on any class, and has DOUBLE the second highest Res growths in the game. Most classes don't get that much use out of it if they sub Ghost... but levelling as a ghost could very possibly lead to perfect Wraithguard activation, meaning taking half damage from every single hit. Consider that people want to nerf the Bodyguard because it basically lets you survive one or two extra actions. This is absolutely incredible, which, by your logic, should completely justify levelling as one. But... what else can you even DO? 0% Will, 20% Str? You won't be doing any real damage. You'll effectively be utterly ineffectual, offensively.

You may argue I'm putting too much stock in stats. My counterargument is "Play a level 28 evoker with 12 will who kills things faster with punches than with Sear, and tell me how that goes." I've only ever gotten 5 characters (Out of over 50 remakes/ etc across 6 accounts) past 40 because most of mine are so RNG screwed as to be completely unplayable unless utterly min/maxed. Sure, a Shaitan Evoker can get 75% will. That seems okay on paper. But that's still a 1/4 chance to miss. As such, it's a terrible choice to consider for a caster as opposed to Karaten/Zeran/Wyverntouched/Lich. Speaking of lich, why do people PLAY lich? That Will growth. The HP/FP trade off is not worth it. It's purely about that Will.

Base stats might make the difference between +3 of a stat at low levels, but a 20% difference in racial growths make the "average" calculated difference +12 at high levels. Dismissing racial growths is like dismissing the class system completely. It's incredibly valid and relevant. Infinitely more so than racial base stats.


I'm not trying to be mean either, and racial skills do make races more diverse, which is wonderful. However, I also really feel that a race's basic overall strength; their build, their brains, etc, are being overlooked in favor of "let's just give things all these amazing bonuses!" After all... a race with 30 in all stats but that can't gain any stats will always be inferior to something with 0 in all stats at level 1, but is guaranteed perfect growths every single level. And it's very much worth factoring in while weighing the pros and cons.

[Daisuke]

Ranylyn » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:03 pm[/url]"]I'm actually getting ready to go to bed, (been insomniac, almost 11 AM here. Running on very empty) so I don't have time to address every single point. I'm just going to single the elf one out since it was one of your first examples.


- Elves are not good for all healer classes. Phoenix is notorious for not applying Healer's Legacy, unless this was ever changed. This leaves their best healing option as Graft. I never actually tested if Healer's Legacy applies to Meditate/Aid, because my elf is canonically dead.

- Phenex -are- good for (almost - not all that much with VA unless their will is high or fighting against magic) -any- class with FP management; for example summoners can be used for a more supplementary role. They can easily install and use low level youkai skill effects (Level 1 Ruby beam can still blind, for example) without draining their FP beyond what they regen per turn, and without any youkai summoned. This allows them to put their faith stat to use in acquiring more youkai for install/evoke options. It just takes a little adapting of the playstyle, it's not strictly gimping yourself.


You may wonder why I'm still arguing this: Simple. If the threshold was changed to 60% as proposed, and it eats 50% of your max FP upon activation... don't you see how a class with major FP management ability could game that to basically be immortal? 100% to 50% would leave you only 10% away from 60%. I'm arguing against making it easier to use so this can't be maliciously exploited to the point that the racial needs to be completely reworked to just be something like only a percentage chance, or perhaps draining ALL FP, in which case you may as well just be dead anyways!. As it is, several class combos, almost all of which have high skill which, go figure, is the main stat the Phenex excels at (they can't use faith as a damage stat) can game the existing effect quite well.

This boldened part is really all I should have said in the first place. Everything else is just fluff.

Now it it makes sense. You're completely misunderstanding how the ability works.
The ONLY reason it gives you "half your max fp" is because it REQUIRES you to be at max FP.
The ability says "half of that FP is consumed and the Phenex restores that much HP immediately"
This means if the requirement for activiation was lowered, you wouldn't be getting half your MAX fp every time, you would only get half of your CURRENT fp. So if an Arb/BK/Ghost/Verg has around 200 FP max and he's sitting at 60% FP which could be the minimum to activate it, dying would not only drop him to 30% fp but it would only give him back 60 hp. It also has a 10 turn cooldown similar to die hard so unless you're some kind of god that can do whatever you please, you won't be stalling for 10 turns and healing back up all your FP to do it again unless it's already a hilariously one-sided match. That's FAR from "immortal".

Also, they have 20% str will and cel which you seem to be forgetting. Having 5% more skill does not mean they "excel" with skill more than anything else, especially considering you only need 20% skill to hit 100%. They are a balanced race growth wise and can do almost anything they want effectively. You're really hung up on this 5% extra skill.

[Ranylyn]

I concede that I forgot to consider FTA's cooldown, for one very simple reason: It has never once been an issue for me simply since you don't get back up to a high enough FP total for it to trigger before that fast enough. Honestly, as it stands now, that cooldown is completely pointless unless a Monk/GS is spamming power up repeatedly or something. I concede the cooldown could be justification to lower the FP threshold. However, I also feel that lowering the threshold would make PVPers rage and demand the skill's effect be changed until dev caves and does so just to shut them up. For example, to Lolzy's suggestion that makes it useless to a solo Phenex.

Also, I never stated that you wouldn't only lose 50% of your current. My example was based around someone trying to game the system for two successive revivals, so they'd be just about maxed out anyways. I do not misunderstand that aspect of the racial ability. I simply forgot about the cooldown, that is it.


However, as someone who's missed THREE successive 97% skill growths WITH lady luck (Yes. Three in a ROW,) I need to say, an extra 5% is ALWAYS appreciated. Especially since that 5% ties it for the best in the game. IMO, if something is going to be the best at ANYTHING, it NEEDS drawbacks. If there was a 30 skill race, I wouldn't be "hung up on" that extra 5%, but there isn't, meaning it's tied for the highest.


EDIT: Fixed typos. Hate this keyboard.

[Lolzytripd]

My suggestion could very easily use a method of putting an indestructable egg status effect on you the turn it triggers with the health already checked and whatnot with 0m till theiir next action, I made this suggestion so that some jerk cant use turn skips to instagib a phenex right after a revive

Is it so hard to believe dev could maybe add a status while defeated as a phenex waiting for the res on your next action that wouldn't automatically end the fight? I think he made the battle system right? should be easy for him

[Daisuke]

That's RNG for you. The odds of that consistently happening for everyone is really really low. 5% is appreciated but that's all it is, especially since you can get 100% with less than 25% skill on a race. You can say tied for best in the game but that doesn't mean much since skill is REALLY easy to get. I'll list the races that can get 100% skill right now actually.
The entire human race, Corbie, Phenex, Felidae, Grimalkin, Vampire, Zeran, Hyattr, Doriad, every single Mech type, and Liches. 19 out of 28 races. And the tie for best skill is between 4 different races. And the other 10 races that don't hit 100% can still get 95% skill.
So this whole "tied for the best skill in the game" isn't meaningful in the slightest. As far as growths are concerned, on average every single race in the game that focuses on skill will have close to the same numbers and the only thing separating 25% from 20% is the ability to get +2 skill growth at a REALLY low chance and you'll be lucky to get 1 of those +2 skill growths. And as far as damage is concerned, even if you miss 4 or 5 skill rolls, your damage will still be in the same ballpark as every other gunner.

And I highly doubt any PVPers would rage considering how you need to be conservative with your FP to make it work on top of it taking half of your current FP. It's basically a last second heal that's more effective the more conservative you were playing. If a heal like that was enough to make people rage, you wouldn't hear the end of it about Vampires since silvermists is WAY better. It doesn't costs any FP, has no cooldown, can be used multiple times, its only limit is essence and when used while at 100 essence it has 0 drawback, with enough Vit you'll heal more than the Phenex passive would heal you, and it can be instantly recharged with an ability that doesn't cost anything and has no penalties when flanking.

[Ranylyn]

1) That "almost anything can get perfect skill" only applies to post-LA with a skill upgrade. Furthermore, if we're dragging post-LA into this, the races that come out on top could still achieve 100% without a min/maxed subclass (As it stands now, they need to sub Kensei/Monk. However, post LA, anything with 20%+ skill will work, they don't need 40%) My point is, it takes work to LA in the first place and it really shouldn't simply be the norm for a debate. State it after the fact (Like I did about Zerans and will) but don't present it as the base argument.

2) You doubt anyone would rage? You SEVERELY overestimate this community's maturity. Bodyguard is facing a nerf because it allows someone to take less damage while their health is already low enough to die in one or two more hits anyways. Think about that for one minute. It lets you survive 1-3 more hits, tops (not counting multi hit guns.) So... the ability to come back with 30+% of your max HP simply for being over 60% FP (which, for the record, very few classes burn FP fast enough to manage to drop below in a single PVP battle, meaning almost every phenex would be guaranteed one revival per PVP battle) WOULDN'T upset people? I mean, a CM'd spell can still punch through a bodyguard decently well, if they weren't at high HP in the first place. But a near-guaranteed revival would let a phenex survive even a CM'd Invocation while already HP critical. Do you REALLY believe people wouldn't shriek and rage from the butthurt? I bet if it was implemented, there'd be a thread about it within FIVE MINUTES.


But hey. I get it. People care more about racials than stats these days. Which honestly, should be a good thing; I myself only got into min/maxing because of my shit luck, and often wish I could simply combine classes whose skills synrgize well. So I'll ease off on my stat arguments unless it's critically relevant (such as someone trying to nerf wraithguard since a Ghost has shit growths and is the only thing that can reliably proc it) I'll also compile a list of my own racial suggestions I feel is fair and diverse to all stats; things scaling with level instead of stats, etc, so everyone within a race can use them equally well.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

Suggested a new change to Healer's Legacy. When healing an ally or themself with a healing spell, the Power of that spell is increased by 25% after mods apply.

Added new trait (skill that costs 1 trait point to acquire) to Papilion's butterflies; Bufferflies. Butterfly Illusions increase all stats by Papilion's Level / 10 (max of +5 to all stats for a total of 6 in every stat).