[Rendar]

Okay so. I'm going to make a post about why dodge is hillariously bullshit, but lets go ahead and do this song and dance again. Yes, I'm making a post because dodge is overpowered.

Let's lay out some guidelines of who the fighters are, and stats.

Over here, we have a level 57 MG/Tactician

93 Accuracy Spirit Hunter, Blessed. Max Marksmanship, Max Dynamic Shooting.
SKI*2+0.5LUC+FAI+10+16+93
54*2+0.5*42+26+10+16+93 = 274 Hit

In our other corner, we have a level 55 Kensei/Verglas!

82 Celerity, 35 Luck, 16 Dodge Armor, Agile Feet, After Image, and UnA. Prowess
(CEL*2+LUC+16+6+20)*1.06
(82*2+35+16+6+20)*1.06 = 255.46, or for short, 255 Dodge.

So, in a typical fight, this looks like the Magic Gunner would have an actual decent chance to hit the dodger. However, this is a dirty, dirty lie.

In reality, that hit is automatically dropped from 274, down to 232.9 from a simple .innate. boost.

274*0.85 = 232.9 Hit

So now it's already bad. with the MG standing at a -23% chance to hit.

232.9 hit vs 255 dodge

Now, you all can say "Oh well you have Attack Formation! You can have charged shot give +25!"

Well.. that'd be good, except Attack Formation is just +25, putting me at a whopping 2% to hit, IF I didn't lose 15% of that as well, which lah-dee-dah I do. So that's not usable at all. Same goes for Charged Shot. I guess if I want to overcharge then flick safety on, I might have the ability to do that. Except I still get -15% to that, and..

Oh wait. What's this? They just feared me with Absolute Fear.

-30 hit. Putting the MG at

202.9 Hit vs 255 Dodge

There is no, feasible, way to get out of this. The 'hit buff' forever ago, that 'broke dodging 4ever LOLZ' actually made the game more balanced than it had ever been, because dodge was so utterly stacked it was nigh impossible to hit. Except whenever you hit a possible 1% chance and insta-gibbed them because blessed OP.

Not only do they have utter dominance in the "YOU HAVE TO HIT ME. HUE HUE HUE!" portion, but they can translate that celerity of 82, DIRECTLY into damage with 0 effort. Rapid Kick utterly annihilated the MG, dealing about 140~ damage as an auto-hit... WITHOUT the Ice Greaves.

The fight was impossible to win on the MG's side, they pulled out as much stuff as they could, only being able to reach -10% after ANALYZING them for -16% dodge onto the enemy.

Hit: -9.81718%


This is absurd, and really had gone unchecked for way to long. Chaos and I did number crunching forever ago proving that Dodge was ovepowered and obscene, but I never really got to actually view it in play. To fight against a Kensei, you have to have the Kensei Innates so that you can even have a dream of hitting them.

[Soapy]

Why?

[Lolzytripd]

because you can buff cel to high hell with innates , skill not so much.

[Jay]

Lolzytripd » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:50 pm[/url]"]because you can buff cel to high hell with innates , skill not so much.

Also, do you mind sending more examples that doesn't involve Kensei?

[Rendar]

Sure! I've actually posted that in the other thread, so I'll just quote myself here.

@Sawrock I'm awake now! Sure I can do that Saw! Infact I think I already did it, but I'll post it again here for ya.

93 Accuracy Spirit Hunter, Blessed. Max Marksmanship, Max Dynamic Shooting.
SKI*2+0.5LUC+FAI+10+16+93
54*2+0.5*42+26+10+16+93 = 274 Hit

In our other corner, we have a level 55 Kensei/Verglas!

82 Celerity, 35 Luck, 16 Dodge Armor, Agile Feet, After Image, and UnA. Prowess
(CEL*2+LUC+16+6+20)*1.06
(82*2+35+16+6+20)*1.06 = 255.46, or for short, 255 Dodge.

With no other boosts, or nerfs, my hit is at 19% < 274 Hit- 255 Dodge = 19% >

If they had decided to use any negative hit status effect < Which, if we're taking into account they aren't using Kensei anymore, they can use any other class combo! >

So you've got fear or blind. Which can turn that 274 hit to 244 hit, 174 hit, OR 144 hit alone, or together.

I can understand Blind completely wrecking hit, because that's kind of what it do. In fact, A quick and dirty way to have done it, with 100% rate for Blind Success, would have to been main-class LB and use Altera once every so often. -100 hit for no effort. Go figure.

If they were blinded, it would turn the fight towards something more like this.

174 Hit - 225 Dodge... Which as you can tell, is already -50% to hit almost. Not much, if any, amount of 'omg hit buffs!' from a person could bring it out of such a thing.

@Ranylyn You said "passive hit bonuses from the base class" By the way, did I mention that the +25 from Marksmanship and Dynamic Shooting is actually less because of Kenki taking 15% off of it? Making it about +22 hit in reality. I think I did somewhere.


Edit: @Sawrock I actually took the liberty of changing the formula to pre-blessed, in case you wished to compare how abysmal hit was back then, and how necessary ( yes Necessary ) the Blessed = hit boost was.

93 Accuracy Spirit Hunter, Blessed. Max Marksmanship, Max Dynamic Shooting.
SKI*2+0.5LUC+10+16+93
54*2+0.5*42+10+16+93 = 248 Hit


82 Celerity, 35 Luck, 16 Dodge Armor, Agile Feet, After Image, and UnA. Prowess
(CEL*2+LUC+16+6+20)*1.06
(82*2+35+16+6+20)*1.06 = 255.46, or for short, 255 Dodge.

Without FAITH boosting hit, this combat, even without kenki, is a lost cause.

248 hit vs 255 dodge.

JUST SAYING

Well if you plan to say "Without Kensei" you should specify. I'll change it up right fast then, and even add a "What if I had near-as-bullshit skill as they have celerity!"

93 Accuracy Spirit Hunter, Blessed. Max Marksmanship, Max Dynamic Shooting.
SKI*2+0.5LUC+FAI+10+16+93
68*2+0.5*42+26+10+16+93 = 302 Hit

In our other corner, we have a level 55 LB/Verglas!

82 Celerity, 35 Luck, 16 Dodge Armor, Agile Feet, After Image, and UnA. Prowess
(CEL*2+LUC+16+6+20)*1.06
(82*2+35+16+6+20)*1.06 = 255.46, or for short, 255 Dodge.

There is no difference between LB and Kensei, except VA has a lot of long-lasting buffs to their dodge. Now then, lets begin!

302 hit vs 255 Dodge that's about 47% chance to hit. Reasonable, but utterly abysmal considering it wastes momentum attacking. But, lets assume that it's 'fair' there. LB can do a few quick things and turn that to nothing. First off, they can make you take -100 hit, or -50.

That turns that 302 hit into 202 hit, or 252 hit respectively. Which is, surprisingly, still in the negatives. Whooda thunk it. It's slightly less abymsal to get out of that deathtrap of MINUS HIT, but not really because the amount of buffs you can nab for yourself will drag you, barely, back up to being able to hit. In a fight, a 10% chance just doesn't cut it. Especially against someone who can < and will > swap over to using RAPID KICK for an asinine amount of damage that is generally about 1/3rd of your health per use without greaves, and they can use it TWICE in a turn if they start beside you.

This time I did it with 68 SKI, because that's the average person usually that doesnt build on HITSKRIEG. Oh, by the way, since apparently I guess it needs to be stated. Let me compare what it would like if you weren't a gunner, because apparently by .all. means does this mean anything because 'guns so op'

---------SITUATIONAL STUFF BASED ON A DIFFERENT CLASS SET UP OF THE ATTACK-----------

In this scenario, an archer would be at less of an advantage, nabbing a situational -40 hit from PfA, counteracted somewhat by the +16 Hit Archers get making it a net -24. And due to most of the bows I have in my selection, fully upgraded, have 95% accuracy, that means in total hit for an archer is at -22 of what it would be as a gunner here.

If the attacker was a VA/Ghost whom is using a Coral sharp thieving dagger with a Firm Hilt and Razor Blade. for mods. Lets go and do this!

The dagger has 103 Accuracy, the ghost has max fitting form for +20 hit, blessed dagger too! Same base SKI as before, because not many people will actually have PERFECT SKILL aside from. You know. Gunners who rely 100% on it.

SKI*2+0.5LUC+FAI+10+16+93
54*2+0.5*42+26+20+103 = 278 Hit

Wait.. what's this..? The dagger is SLIGHTLY more accurate than the gun?!?! OMGZORS You can see the sarcasm there, I hope. It gets about 4 more hit in this situation, over a gun. Which means that it's still in unusable territory. Even including Fitting Forms +20 and the daggers inherent +10 over the gun, it can't quite compare because the gun already had its own sort of thing there. So, dagger users are invalidated and not usable against an actual dodger, like themselves.

Tomes have worse accuracy than pretty much everything, moving on.

Axes are bad and you should feel bad for thinking they can actually hit that.

Spears! Spears are good, I guess. Lets see what a Gae Bolg Replica can do wit can do at that SKI

SKI*2+0.5LUC+FAI+10+16+93
54*2+0.5*42+26+20+105 = 280 Hit

Ouch. Even fully fitted for hit, it couldn't really get that high. It got to 280, which isn't that much over the gun.. or anything really.

See, this isn't just about 'lolgunners' or anything. Guns aren't even that ACCURATE. Stop saying they're the most accurate thing in the game, they aren't. Even bows aren't even the 'most accurate' sometimes. This goes to ALL classes, affects ALL people that have to make hit checks.
--------------END other classes------------------

[Soapy]

1. muh single class has another class that counters it
2. Are you seriously comparing 54 ski to 82 cel?
3. Are you seriously expecting people to do damage as LB/Verglas?
4. Are you seriously assuming blind is actually -100 hit anymore, and glossing over the fact that any Kaelensia race (whoops, I forgot you play one) are completely unaffected by it?
5. Are you not realizing Afterimage was added because of the blessed change?
6. Are you seriously unaware that stacking dodge is an exercise in futility because they'll just use autohits once hit drops below a certain point?
- Most of which can chunk you for nearly the same damage, which is a lot considering all you did is stack dodge chance?
7. Should I make a post detailing how you can get 100 DEF and 90% damage reduction with only 40 base?

8. More importantly, [marquee]How many times do we have to point out you're wrong?[/marquee]

[Sawrock]

So what you're saying is that we need more SKI innates?

[Rendar]

More SKI+ Innates might work. However the things that massively boost SKI < See: the few innates that do >, generally also boost another stat. Hell, MG, which uses WIL/SKI over everything, gets one for CEL/RES iirc.

Kensei gets STR/SKI

Verglas gets +5 STR, WIL, or CEL, or any combination of the above.

[Rendar]

@SoapyDoing damage as LB/Verglas, or Verg/Kensei as the person in the original example, is extremely easy. Since. You know. "Oh well they guarded against my magic. Time to swap to RAPID KICK" wherein they dealt 120 damage to me without ice greaves.

Yes I'm comparing something that the average person, who doesn't stack skill to get PERF skill growths, versus someone who stacks celerity. Anyone who relies on attack checks will eventually never be relevant. inb4 you say they were never relevant to begin with.

It's -50, as I stated in one of my examples. Though I guess you weren't around for it. After Image being a 1.06x boost was something to boost dodge. Even before that, however, dodgers were nigh impossible to hit. Guess you wouldn't really know since you play dodge mcgee's 24/7.

Setting aside personal attacks in hillarious coding, since thats now an option to do. < Thanks Dev >

To actually hit someone, you need Blessed, and even then, the odds of you actually landing the attack is nigh useless unless you stack SKI to match their CEL. In which case it becomes a 'meh' battle of the ages.

[Ranylyn]

I'm 100% with Soapy on this. Every class needs a counter. Your classes' counters are dodgers. Dodgers are completely wrecked by most anything else.


I really, REALLY hate to say this, and I apologize if it comes across as a personal attack because it's not. However, I very much do need to point this out: your reactions to counters to your class are donwright irrational at times. For example, that time an LB/Monk was giving your archer a hard time since you couldn't hit, and you incorrectly stated that "Every MA takes protction from arrows since there's no better options to put that SP into" which is quite frankly a laughably ignorant statement on so many levels that I couldn't even bring myself to reply back then because I just knew I'd get annoyed as I typed my reponse, and I did not want to devolve into sheer insults.

I really get the impression that you're playing rock-paper-scissors and getting irritated that paper beats rock because you wither want rock to beat everything. This is seriously how you're coming across, I'm not even stretching the truth at all. As evident in threads where I agree with you, I don't have anything against you, nor am I singling you out. I'm just pointing this out to make you aware of the issue.

For comparison: I complain about Mind Charge applying Res after the damage multiplier, right? This is because Res is the defensive stat against magic. Just as defense is a counter to physical attacks, resistance is meant to be a counter to magic. Except... it isn't, since Mind Charge invalidates it. It's a counter that simply doesn't work, hence why I complain about it. On the flipide, I fully accept losing to an evoker on a character with low resistance since, yes, that's perfectly logical; I have little to no damage mitigation, of course I'll suffer for it.

Just throwing that out there. Please think this over.