[Autumn]

I think its universally agreed upon that this torso's effect is a little on the strong side currently, and I do not think it too healthy for the game state as low power weapons already do actually kinda suffer already in most regards, since Scaled Weapon Attack usually scales a lot higher than critical damage, people tend to aim towards high power weapons by default instead of the critical damage weapons, which now have been squandered a bit further.



I think that this armor effect can be changed in a way that still fulfills it's strong tank fantasy without having to appeal to most of everyone who likes having 7 base Armor/Magic armor and 25 additional HP and FP. The armor itself has some really strong base stats, so I'd like to see the effect changed slightly.

I think that it should befit the actual tanks of the game, the builds that for-go offense and run Sword and Board, the effect should be active when the user is using a Shield at the very least. That way you're at least seeing people using this sacrifice some of their offense for the incredible defensive effect.

[Lolzytripd]

could honestly reverse it, reducing crit damage from anything over 11 base power

[renowner]

Armor hasn't been out long enough for me to have a strong opinion on it. But as low power weapons tend to be things like daggers, which generally have a history of being good at getting through chinks in heavy armor, I do think it should probably nerf the higher power weapons rather than lower.

Armor seems pretty good. I'd say situationally good except it also gets +25 hp and fp. . .I feel like that really pushes it over the edge of being okay. Its weight is also extremely low.

Yeah i'm all for nerfing this.

Comparing it to bodyguard, bodyguard has a massive 40 weight making it tough to use for most people, even harder for boulder. And it has a good effect that really aids in tanking.

This has an effect that's great for tanking, hp AND Fp boosts , AND has low weight.

[Snake]

I actually like the idea of

"If you have a Shield equipped: Reduces the critical damage of blah blah blah."

[MegaBlues]

So I just did some napkin math for this. The actual effect the torso has isn't very intuitive because it's a flat modifier to a multiplicative damage source; ie, it's not purely 25% DR against low-power crits.

The formula for critical damage is essentially base damage multiplied by the critical rate, or D(1+0.01x), where D is the damage before crits and x is the critical modifier. The formula for critical damage reduced by the torso is D(1+0.01(x-25)). With fancy math shenanigans, we can divide the new damage by the old damage, reduce it, and come up with something that looks like y=(0.75+0.01x)/(1.00+0.01x) to see how much effective damage resistance this item gives based on the user's effective critical damage.

You can even graph it if you want, but effectively, at 50% critical damage, you receive 16.7% DR. At 100% critical damage, like daggers can easily achieve, you would receive 12.5% DR against crits. Powerful and useful, but still situational and even in those situations, not gamebreaking like this thread would lead you to believe.

In short, stop kneejerking about new items actually being potentially useful before even seeing how they affect the game.

[Lolzytripd]

So I just did some napkin math for this. The actual effect the torso has isn't very intuitive because it's a flat modifier to a multiplicative damage source; ie, it's not purely 25% DR against low-power crits.

The formula for critical damage is essentially base damage multiplied by the critical rate, or D(1+0.01x), where D is the damage before crits and x is the critical modifier. The formula for critical damage reduced by the torso is D(1+0.01(x-25)). With fancy math shenanigans, we can divide the new damage by the old damage, reduce it, and come up with something that looks like y=(0.75+0.01x)/(1.00+0.01x) to see how much effective damage resistance this item gives based on the user's effective critical damage.

You can even graph it if you want, but effectively, at 50% critical damage, you receive 16.7% DR. At 100% critical damage, like daggers can easily achieve, you would receive 12.5% DR against crits. Powerful and useful, but still situational and even in those situations, not gamebreaking like this thread would lead you to believe.

In short, stop kneejerking about new items actually being potentially useful before even seeing how they affect the game.

Ah so it fucks over strength based crit builds that can't build as much guile/don't have it baked into their weapon/talents

So Swords, "normal" bows, Fists and Spears are getting the worst of this torso, Axes are probably almost as fine as guns, and the dagger is the least affected....

Oh guess it would suck to play a Booksmack crit fisher too right now....

[Autumn]

So I just did some napkin math for this. The actual effect the torso has isn't very intuitive because it's a flat modifier to a multiplicative damage source; ie, it's not purely 25% DR against low-power crits.

The formula for critical damage is essentially base damage multiplied by the critical rate, or D(1+0.01x), where D is the damage before crits and x is the critical modifier. The formula for critical damage reduced by the torso is D(1+0.01(x-25)). With fancy math shenanigans, we can divide the new damage by the old damage, reduce it, and come up with something that looks like y=(0.75+0.01x)/(1.00+0.01x) to see how much effective damage resistance this item gives based on the user's effective critical damage.

You can even graph it if you want, but effectively, at 50% critical damage, you receive 16.7% DR. At 100% critical damage, like daggers can easily achieve, you would receive 12.5% DR against crits. Powerful and useful, but still situational and even in those situations, not gamebreaking like this thread would lead you to believe.

In short, stop kneejerking about new items actually being potentially useful before even seeing how they affect the game.

No one has ever said that it ever decreased someone's damage by 25%, even the effective DRs you have listed are really strong to just have on a torso slot item, keeping in mind Lucky Amulet had to be changed for some of the exact reasons as this (which can stack additively with this item slot as well.)

Additionally, this still screws over weapons with lower critical damage the most, which is a very wide spectrum of weapons when you consider that Swords/Spears/Fists/Bows are worth building Crit for, but usually not critical damage, opting into SWA instead, this affects their damage FAR FAR more than daggers, daggers are unironically the least affected by this torso armor despite being a mitigation tool vs critical damage. The fact that Lucky Amulet before could make those weapon classes useless for gaining critical damage with meant it HAD to be changed.

I don't think anyone is quite knee jerking here, and at least I am saying that the effect is powerful and cool but is deserving of a condition, quite frankly I think dismissing people's thoughts on items as kneejerk reactions without a good reason to doesn't add anything constructive to the thread.

[renowner]

So I just did some napkin math for this. The actual effect the torso has isn't very intuitive because it's a flat modifier to a multiplicative damage source; ie, it's not purely 25% DR against low-power crits.

The formula for critical damage is essentially base damage multiplied by the critical rate, or D(1+0.01x), where D is the damage before crits and x is the critical modifier. The formula for critical damage reduced by the torso is D(1+0.01(x-25)). With fancy math shenanigans, we can divide the new damage by the old damage, reduce it, and come up with something that looks like y=(0.75+0.01x)/(1.00+0.01x) to see how much effective damage resistance this item gives based on the user's effective critical damage.

You can even graph it if you want, but effectively, at 50% critical damage, you receive 16.7% DR. At 100% critical damage, like daggers can easily achieve, you would receive 12.5% DR against crits. Powerful and useful, but still situational and even in those situations, not gamebreaking like this thread would lead you to believe.

In short, stop kneejerking about new items actually being potentially useful before even seeing how they affect the game.

First of all, nobody said that its a free -25% damage to all crits forever. That'd be beyond stupid. 
Second of all, even if we assume its going to be an average of -15% damage taken from all dagger crits, and around 20% less damage taken from some spear and sword and handgun crits, and some bows  (More from fists but i've not seen a fist crit build in so long) . . . That on its own is probably fair. However.

As we noted. It also gives +25 hp. +25 fp. And has extremely low weight and rarity.

Nobody said it was the most broken thing ever. Nobody said it was horrifically overpowered. What we're saying is that its doing too much too easily and basically has become the new terrasque shell auto include to just about everyone using heavy armor. Terrasque shell being a nine star. This being a six star. And this is definitely stronger than terrasque shell against crit builds with lower base power weapons. By a huge margin. And only slightly weaker than terrasque shell otherwise.(I value FP more than Hp boosts on equipment, but Terrasque does give a tiny bit of hp regen which adds up over time.) They have roughly the same weight.  Its also about as good as bodyguard, except at half the weight.

It should get a slight nerf. 
Or other heavy armor should get a slight buff. Most of them are trash.

[Kameron8]

Not that I don't like some good number crunching, but if we got an identical armor piece that said "reduce the damage of spells by 12.5%-25% when cast from a weapon with X or less weight", people would rightfully raise an eyebrow.  Just because not everybody builds for crit, and not everybody is unlucky enough to run a lightweight weapon, doesn't mean the power level isn't very high.

[MegaBlues]

comc
/5char