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Flip shot flip shot flip shot
#1
Flip shot

1: Has decent range
2: Allows you to move while attacking
3: Allows you to select a specific spot to move (unlike retreat flight)
4: Has bonus hit
5: Has no cooldown and low FP cost

This skill alone makes ranger worth taking, and also makes ranger a menace in terms of kiting. The sheer mobility of this class can be overwhelming in many cases due to it.

As it stands, you just spam it every single turn and in many cases that makes you momentum positive against your opponent and results in overwhelming wins against anyone who isn't prepared for it. I suggest it gets a nerf. Any nerf, please. Just nerf flip shot.
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#2
It is one part of a several piece toolkit that makes ranger kiting absolutely insurmountable if done right, but it's definitely the biggest part. Anyone without very strong answers to kiting will be left chasing the ranger from one corner of the map to the other over and over, while getting turned into a pin cushion at the same time. I think it should have less range, and/or a 2 round cooldown. I'd say a 1 round cooldown, but as it's often used in conjunction with other movement skills to cross such massive distances while also getting attacks in, I find it's often only used once per round in most cases anyway.
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#3
I think the main problem with the skill is that it easily outperforms Retreat Flight, as an add-on to the arguments above. It's not as limited to where its mobility allows it to go, it costs less FP, it has the same Hit bonus.

At the very least, if we're not going so harsh on the skill, I'd see its FP costs being adjusted to 35/25/15, and that Hit bonus becoming Critical Hit bonus instead.

Because then, if you flip shot away from an enemy, you'll be subject to Far-Shot Penalty.
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#4
considering Flip Shot moves you and attacks, has good range, gives you hit and attacks after you move which can completely negate the close and farshot penalty, I think it is well deserving of either a pretty harsh cooldown or a pretty crippling range decrease. Granted you can slide across cinders and stuff which makes life pretty hard, it doesn't exactly bode well when your entire gameplan is reliant on such a kitey spammable ability.

As it stands, Flip Shot is easily Ranger's best skill by far, and has kinda deserved this for a while now, a 2 round cooldown cuts it's usage down by 50-75%, a 3 round cooldown cuts it's usage down by 75-85%. A range decrease + 1 round cooldown might help some stay within range and not be such a momentum offset.
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#5
I'd be careful not to overnerf it, because for its balance concerns I'm pretty sure it's one of the few fun abilities Ranger has to use. Quite a lot of Ranger's kit still suffers the flaws of just not being that good, and to take away from what is good without improving what sucks just serves to make a class boring. It shouldn't mix and match crippling nerfs like cooldowns and range decreases together.
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#6
I don't think you can really touch flip shot without changing something else about ranger if I'm completely honest. I have a much longer proposal built up about this, but if you 2 turn flip shot and nerf it's range you effectively kill the class.

Also yes, retreat flight sucks.

Also, to be frank, if flip shot gets nerfed you'll just see ghost rangers do 2x hauntings in a turn. It won't actually fix the issue you're wanting it to. It'll just punish the already bad combinations of X-Ranger where X is not Hexer or Ghost.
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#7
(04-26-2023, 01:16 AM)caliaca Wrote: I don't think you can really touch flip shot without changing something else about ranger if I'm completely honest. I have a much longer proposal built up about this, but if you 2 turn flip shot and nerf it's range you effectively kill the class.

Also yes, retreat flight sucks.

Also, to be frank, if flip shot gets nerfed you'll just see ghost rangers do 2x hauntings in a turn. It won't actually fix the issue you're wanting it to. It'll just punish the already bad combinations of X-Ranger where X is not Hexer or Ghost.

2x hauntings a turn doesn't attack you at the same time is the difference here.
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#8
(04-26-2023, 01:28 AM)Autumn Wrote:
(04-26-2023, 01:16 AM)caliaca Wrote: I don't think you can really touch flip shot without changing something else about ranger if I'm completely honest. I have a much longer proposal built up about this, but if you 2 turn flip shot and nerf it's range you effectively kill the class.

Also yes, retreat flight sucks.

Also, to be frank, if flip shot gets nerfed you'll just see ghost rangers do 2x hauntings in a turn. It won't actually fix the issue you're wanting it to. It'll just punish the already bad combinations of X-Ranger where X is not Hexer or Ghost.

2x hauntings a turn doesn't attack you at the same time is the difference here.
 Sure but it just spaces and makes it so that the enemy can't feasibly retaliate in that time. It just means they wait out the cooldown for flipshot by continuing to make space or even getting to the point where they can 1 + attack. All it does is inflate turn count feasibly speaking. 
I can show this in duels if you want. I have given it a try with flip shot being on a 2turn CD or 2 less range. The duel played out the same way just with 4 or 5 more turns added. The enemy could do even less when I played this way as well, since 1 shot + haunting + walk actually gives more range than going for attacks. It's also a lot more frustrating to deal with.

I'd also really like to point out this kills any archetype that isn't Hexer/Ranger or Ghost/Ranger. Ranger needs more pervasive changes than just nerfing flip shot.
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#9
(04-26-2023, 01:34 AM)caliaca Wrote:
(04-26-2023, 01:28 AM)Autumn Wrote:
(04-26-2023, 01:16 AM)caliaca Wrote: I don't think you can really touch flip shot without changing something else about ranger if I'm completely honest. I have a much longer proposal built up about this, but if you 2 turn flip shot and nerf it's range you effectively kill the class.

Also yes, retreat flight sucks.

Also, to be frank, if flip shot gets nerfed you'll just see ghost rangers do 2x hauntings in a turn. It won't actually fix the issue you're wanting it to. It'll just punish the already bad combinations of X-Ranger where X is not Hexer or Ghost.

2x hauntings a turn doesn't attack you at the same time is the difference here.
 Sure but it just spaces and makes it so that the enemy can't feasibly retaliate in that time. It just means they wait out the cooldown for flipshot by continuing to make space or even getting to the point where they can 1 + attack. All it does is inflate turn count feasibly speaking. 
I can show this in duels if you want. I have given it a try with flip shot being on a 2turn CD or 2 less range. The duel played out the same way just with 4 or 5 more turns added. The enemy could do even less when I played this way as well, since 1 shot + haunting + walk actually gives more range than going for attacks. It's also a lot more frustrating to deal with.

I'd also really like to point out this kills any archetype that isn't Hexer/Ranger or Ghost/Ranger. Ranger needs more pervasive changes than just nerfing flip shot.

In the past this has proved to be a problem with a few classes as well, its nothing new to specifically Ranger, as when Tali staves were meta often you'd just see mages kiting out of range of where anyone could feasibly reach and then have super momentum options in the form of creating a gemstone and casting their spell from it.

We've seen this back when Tamaki Shuriken was just the best bow for having 22 range, we saw this back when 1m mobility was far stronger than it was now. We see this when Magaisendo and Wretched Oil had global range, with global invocations taking their place next.

We see this currently with the absurd range of Bombs and Grenades as well as their reliability, but this is often overlooked due to the unpopular nature of this playstyle, I assure you it is not that fun to actually fight and still perpetuates the fire resist or die meta.

Range matters a lot as I'm sure you're aware, and as such many classes that should face a ranged tax really just don't. Bows do in a sense, but they're more out of awkwardness than anything else, with Crossbows and mutated weaponry really spelling out the actual threat of a weapon class being allowed to build exactly how it wants to and have the entire map as range.

In my post I favor the range nerf of Flip Shot more than larger cooldowns, as for if Ranger can only pair with ghost? Simply untrue, as long as dual wielding bows comes with the benefit of having Sarasha Gi anyways. There will never be a world where 'xd but ghost??? lmfao' is just the end all be all, and thinking so is simply closed minded to other possibilities and the under-appreciated strengths of other setups. Especially when it only takes 1 person thinking of how to run it to make it really strong, nobody thought VA/DH was strong until I optimized and ran it, nobody thought LB was strong until I optimized and ran it.

I don't believe in balancing the game around 1v1 duels specifically, I believe in balancing it for PvE, serious large scale teamfights and then 1v1s, where there are ways to tackle a topic in each individual manner sometimes, for example I think nerfing the range of Flip Shot from 7 to 4 or 5 would harm their 1v1 game more than a 3v3 game.
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#10
I don't think my post was anywhere near 'xd but ghost?'. It was 'Ghost and Hexer paired with ranger are currently problematically strong but reducing the strength of flip shot will not deal much damage to them but be utterly crippling to the other playstyles of ranger that are not these two classes.'

xd ghost had nothing really do with it.

A range nerf on flip shot will similarly do nothing unless it's to the tune of only being one range. It will not harm those two classes paired with ranger while simultaenously shutting down the other combos and that wasn't really addressed.

Also if we're talking about scaling for PvE, ranger flip shot isn't even particularly strong in PvE in comparison to other classes, nor is it THAT strong in 4v4s.

It would harm the 1v1 ability of non ghost/hexer rangers a significant degree and leave those mostly unscathed while cratering the viability of pairing ranger without those two classes (with Priest/Ranger being somewhat considered for it's teamfight and PvE healing).

I never said anything but Ranger only pairing with ghost. I stated that it's the strongest option for it in a 1v1 capacity where Ranger feels the most oppressive, and that nerfing Flip Shot does nothing to deal with this class combo and instead hurts the others who are already not excelling.

Again, play out the range nerf if you want. I have. It won't accomplish what you guys want it to do except killing build variability of Ranger. Ranger needs a complete overhaul, not a flip shot nerf.
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