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Flip shot flip shot flip shot
(04-26-2023, 02:55 AM)caliaca Wrote: I don't think my post was anywhere near 'xd but ghost?'. It was 'Ghost and Hexer paired with ranger are currently problematically strong but reducing the strength of flip shot will not deal much damage to them but be utterly crippling to the other playstyles of ranger that are not these two classes.'

xd ghost had nothing really do with it.

A range nerf on flip shot will similarly do nothing unless it's to the tune of only being one range. It will not harm those two classes paired with ranger while simultaenously shutting down the other combos and that wasn't really addressed.

Also if we're talking about scaling for PvE, ranger flip shot isn't even particularly strong in PvE in comparison to other classes, nor is it THAT strong in 4v4s.

It would harm the 1v1 ability of non ghost/hexer rangers a significant degree and leave those mostly unscathed while cratering the viability of pairing ranger without those two classes (with Priest/Ranger being somewhat considered for it's teamfight and PvE healing).

I never said anything but Ranger only pairing with ghost. I stated that it's the strongest option for it in a 1v1 capacity where Ranger feels the most oppressive, and that nerfing Flip Shot does nothing to deal with this class combo and instead hurts the others who are already not excelling.

Again, play out the range nerf if you want. I have. It won't accomplish what you guys want it to do except killing build variability of Ranger. Ranger needs a complete overhaul, not a flip shot nerf.

I can see that you underestimate how much a range nerf might hurt the ability's consistency to be able to kite people out, it's effectiveness in a teamfight is pretty dang good too, even if thunderbolt might win out in certain situations.

Simply put I don't see why Flip Shot should be over double the effectiveness of Parting shot, let you choose where to go and then also give you hit, parting shot makes you lose hit even. The Range on Flip Shot needs to be drastically lowered, and drastically can mean 2-3 range, given that is nerfing the ability's effectiveness by 30-50%.

Yes Ranger needs some work, but Flip Shot needs to take a knee to make that happen. I have gone on record multiple times in the discord server in saying that Ranger itself hinges pretty solely upon Flip Shot. And it'll need that addressed first before other things can be touched upon.
I mean, I can say it to the cows come home but I've sparred it out with friends and it basically didn't change very much. Flip shot right now is good in team fights and not that over bearing. Like I said, play it out, try other class combos than just Ghost/Ranger or Hexer/Ranger and look how it works without those two classes.

I'll also heavily be against trying to knee cap a class without accompanying it with other, more encompassing changes.
Can I mention Blink?
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The two hauntings isn't a very fair comparison. . You already flip shot > Haunting and if you procced fleur, you can flip shot > Attack > Haunting or Flip shot > Move >Haunting or something already.

However despite that, this game does have a kiting problem in general. Lots of ways to get across the whole map, very few ways if any to really punish or stop it. Immobilize gives immunity, clumsy is hard to inflict and doesn't stop a lot of moves like haunting. . . Winged serpent is another one that I think is overpowered. Low to no momentum cost, no cooldown, no real drawback to spamming it every turn and just zooming away from your opponent. If you lack Heaven's Kick you have pretty much no effective way to counter that strategy at all.

Retreat shot is trash because flip shot does every single thing it does but literally better. But with a cooldown, it at least has some utility.

So my personal take is:
Winged serpent needs a cooldown.
Haunting needs a cooldown.
All moves that move you really far need the blink/jetpack cooldown treatment to prevent infinite running aside from basic movement which is more punishable.
Flip shot should have a 2 turn cooldown.
Retreat have a 2 turn cooldown, and not remove longdraw. making it have an actual niche beyond flip shot. But against melee foes it'd be just as punishing without a cooldown.
If we're gonna nerf movement options across the board we better nerf the upper tier of range. Longdraw and gust arrows is just incredible amounts of range. Volley formation and stuff like wind enchant shinken as well. It kind of flies in the face of a core element of the game pvp balance which is the equilibrium between range, kiting, and gap closing
A lack of mobility options still perpetuates many more problems and creates new threats that are not always fun to have to deal with, plus certain combos and classes are just fun when they have access to low momentum forms of mobility, I can count how many builds I'd love to make use of shift dimension on for example.

Going back on topic for the original post, My points earlier mostly conclude that I think that the 1v1 strength of Flip Shot is far stronger than the teamfighting strength of the ability, not that its bad in a teamfight either, just that in a 1v1 sense its able to completely kite out most builds on merit of it being able to just jump back so far, creating advantageous momentum trades very easily, easier than most other methods. Nerfing the range makes creating those advantages a bit harder. Also preventing double tapping seems to be a no brainer nowadays.

It also probably just shouldn't give hit, still gonna ramble on about how parting shot is just strictly 3x worse than Flip Shot.
Like I said, it just getting the Hit being swapped with Critical Hit should be enough of a change for the skill. (And 1 round cooldown at BEST.)
[Image: ht_pudding_the_fox_04_mt_140821_16x9_384.jpg]
I think it's deserving of at least a 1-2 turn cooldown (I think 3 and above would just be overkill). Every reason why has been laid out so I won't parrot the same issues presented above. It has way too many benefits to be a spammable move. Comparing teleports to a skill that deals damage, increases hit, and moves you at the same time just doesn't really even hold a candle.

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