[iStabOreos]

I don't know about you, but I've been playing this game for nine years. I stand by what I said.

If that's your argument then I've been here less(not counting my time in SL1) and yet I still know equally or slightly more, common sense is a bitch.

iStabOreos » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:12 am[/url]"]Cause if you really want to get technical Misuterii High is more 'Slice of Life' than SL2 in some regards.

People die in that game. Constantly. Literally the only thing that happens is murdering.

Sigrogana is and always has been about walking around and talking to people.


There really aren't many other ways I can word this.

If you feel like you have to word it any better to sound smarter go ahead, I know what I said, but I was just well lets say I was giving you a counter argument to when this shit storm began, I'm fully aware of what the fuck I said

[Egil]

Soapy » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:57 am[/url]"]Sorry, I wasn't actually calling it that based on your favorite highschool anime. Would 'fantasy soap opera' be a better description?

For the most part (like nearly everyone in this thread, for example), nothing changes outside of interpersonal relationships.

The most 'serious' thing the average character gets involved with is a verbal argument ending in a spar, where both are fine five minutes later.

I don't know about you, but I've been playing this game for nine years. I stand by what I said.

I accidentally glossed over this. My bad!

These statements- how nothing much changes outside of interpersonal relationships- is what I'm fighting against. So you haven't really said anything new, since I already addressed that as the second reason why I made this thread, beyond jail sucking. Jail really sucks OOC'ly when it shouldn't, since most of the things that get people imprisoned are good/great RP from an OOC standpoint, so... the player shouldn't be OOC'ly locked away for long stretches of time.

So I guess you will need to reiterate, because from what Dev has said and from what I've gleamed from the playerbase, SL2 isn't meant to be slice of life. Thus, even if you feel that it qualifies as slice-of-life, I'm proposing change because that's the general desire of the community.

[Chaos]

I'll just get straight to the OP:

1. I fail to see how long/additive sentences are degrading to people trying to 'provoke RP' or 'provide conflict'. I've said plenty of times before that Guards/Jail do not stop villains and such; it makes where they have to be smart about it. Going and shooting up someone in the middle of the Arena isn't smart, and quite honestly, it already happens often enough that I doubt it'll provoke anything you're suggesting.

2. Long/additive sentences are used as a punishment for people who rack up a lot of crimes. Giving people a measly 3 OOC days tops for sentences (IC-wise, this is less than a month) is basically saying 'The Empire slaps people on the wrist for committing capital offenses such as rape, arson and murder'. A racked-up record will be incredibly harsh on your character no matter what; the additive sentence system makes you pay for it with a longer disconnect from the IC at large for that character. (Egregious cases will get executed, obviously)

The only other alternative I see is to place relative disabilities/losses on your character if their sentence would go beyond a certain length. (Prior to getting The Warning) However, such afflictions would likely be permanent, since it would be completely useless to have them if everyone can just slap on a mechanical X or use low-level Mercana to recover (which is godmodding anyways). It also requires that the player will abide by the terms, and I'm sure there's a portion of our playerbase that gives absolutely no shits and will do everything in their power to get their way. If a lot of people REALLY want this alternative, I can consider giving it a whirl, but I doubt it will work in the long-term.

I don't really see any other alternative. I'm looking for a system that punishes people for committing crimes, not a system that throws fluffy pillows at people who commit third-degree manslaughter. If you want to avoid getting imprisoned for a long time, then play your cards right and don't do your actions where you can get thrown into jail for them.

3. Event Tools have been pitched an infinite number of times, and the most we have right now is that Dev is (maybe) poking at them. Until those Event Tools are finished, plausible 'events' cannot happen, and judging by what events we had prior, we certainly don't have the ability to do proper events without them right now. If you want Event Tools to come around a little faster, then it would be wise to get a popular opinion of 'goddamnit dev get those event tools made pls' for Event Tools to go into full swing.

4. Here's the thing about RP in SL2: we've had the suggestions to 'affect the world' and 'create conflict' for a long time, but it's always been rather vague. But do you know what you can currently affect? Other characters. If you can affect other characters, you can affect the present world. But in order to do that, you have to get across to those characters. You're going to find that a good portion of characters will not care; this is an unfortunate truth that pertains to SL2.

If you want to create some good RP/conflict, let me give you a golden piece of advice: Find the right crowd. Public RP is a very tough sell at best. You have to find the people that can roll with you; once you do, anything is possible.

[Egil]

Chaos » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:52 am[/url]"]I'll just get straight to the OP:

1. I fail to see how long/additive sentences are degrading to people trying to 'provoke RP' or 'provide conflict'. I've said plenty of times before that Guards/Jail do not stop villains and such; it makes where they have to be smart about it. Going and shooting up someone in the middle of the Arena isn't smart, and quite honestly, it already happens often enough that I doubt it'll provoke anything you're suggesting.

Of course, I don’t expect people to just be let off for trying to murder random innocent people in public. However, the thing is that most people stick very close to large areas of traffic (the arena, Cellvsich, etc) and you may not be able to figure out when they leave those areas without skype-no-jutsu and that obviously isn’t fair. And regardless of how smart you play your cards, you already admitted stated down in your post that it’s better to just ‘find the right crowd’ instead of trying to make anything major happen, so you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is it that villains/conflict igniters need to be smarter or should they just toss in the towel and focus on cliquing and elitism?

2. Long/additive sentences are used as a punishment for people who rack up a lot of crimes. Giving people a measly 3 OOC days tops for sentences (IC-wise, this is less than a month) is basically saying 'The Empire slaps people on the wrist for committing capital offenses such as rape, arson and murder'. A racked-up record will be incredibly harsh on your character no matter what; the additive sentence system makes you pay for it with a longer disconnect from the IC at large for that character. (Egregious cases will get executed, obviously)

Sure, but if you’re arrested for self-defense because a guard felt that you were in the wrong for not allowing yourself to be harmed outside of a spar without putting up a fight (hi) or for any other seemingly insignificant/non-criminal charge, you’re fucked because of the additive nature of the prison system- and I’m not the sort to OOC’ly complain whenever anything goes wrong. I just sorta’ allow them to accumulate so that I can make a case for charge all at once- and ensure that it’s not just a one-off isuse. Plus, there are a couple of cases of guards covering for their IC (and potentially OOC) friends and comrades who commit crimes. With that sort of stuff happening, what you’ve said here doesn’t really convince me that it’s fair from an OOC perspective. It makes sense IC’ly, but I don’t want to have to make a second character just to get some RP on an RP game.

The only other alternative I see is to place relative disabilities/losses on your character if their sentence would go beyond a certain length. (Prior to getting The Warning) However, such afflictions would likely be permanent, since it would be completely useless to have them if everyone can just slap on a mechanical X or use low-level Mercana to recover (which is godmodding anyways). It also requires that the player will abide by the terms, and I'm sure there's a portion of our playerbase that gives absolutely no shits and will do everything in their power to get their way. If a lot of people REALLY want this alternative, I can consider giving it a whirl, but I doubt it will work in the long-term.

I agree that consequences are necessary to maintain realism and some sort of common sense. I don’t agree that you should experience pseudo-bans when you haven’t done anything wrong OOC’ly. I agree that if you say something stupid in Law’s End and get your arm cut off, that’s completely on you. I don’t agree with guards being arrest-happy when the prison system is a heavily punishing one. It’s a huge incentive to not do anything productive, not as much of an incentive to be ‘smarter’ about one’s actions when it comes to making conflict/being violent.

I don't really see any other alternative. I'm looking for a system that punishes people for committing crimes, not a system that throws fluffy pillows at people who commit third-degree manslaughter. If you want to avoid getting imprisoned for a long time, then play your cards right and don't do your actions where you can get thrown into jail for them.

I feel that being friends with a guard OOC’ly and cliquing up with them is much more effective for avoiding jail than anything you could do IC’ly- beyond being a completely passive bystander in all cases, of course.

3. Event Tools have been pitched an infinite number of times, and the most we have right now is that Dev is (maybe) poking at them. Until those Event Tools are finished, plausible 'events' cannot happen, and judging by what events we had prior, we certainly don't have the ability to do proper events without them right now. If you want Event Tools to come around a little faster, then it would be wise to get a popular opinion of 'goddamnit dev get those event tools made pls' for Event Tools to go into full swing.

‘k.

4. Here's the thing about RP in SL2: we've had the suggestions to 'affect the world' and 'create conflict' for a long time, but it's always been rather vague. But do you know what you can currently affect? Other characters. If you can affect other characters, you can affect the present world. But in order to do that, you have to get across to those characters. You're going to find that a good portion of characters will not care; this is an unfortunate truth that pertains to SL2.

If you want to create some good RP/conflict, let me give you a golden piece of advice: Find the right crowd. Public RP is a very tough sell at best. You have to find the people that can roll with you; once you do, anything is possible.

I’m not going to indulge in elitism just to avoid a bad prison system. That’s what I think you mean by ‘find the right crowd’. I’d rather address why I feel that its’ bad and, if enough people agree, get it changed-… instead of, you know, just be a Limwell/Rockwell, or only interact with folks in a specific skype group for convenience, or ignore people that are cancerous/edgy/etc in IC and only RP with folks that I jive with OOC’ly. If this is a roleplay mandatory game, then I’m not going to take shortcuts. I want to experience SL2 as a whole- and if the experience is poor, then I want to offer my thoughts on what improvements I can see working.

You may have heard this argument made a million times before or these sorts of suggestions presented a million times before, but since I have not heard your million rebuttals, I’m not going to simply accept ‘This is how it is because it makes sense IC’ly, Dev does what Dev wants, and that’s just how things are’. I want to know why things are the way they are.

[Balthie]

just be a Limwell/Rockwell

I have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
Also Victoria doesn't discriminate with her company in the least. She does not, has not, and will not ignore people based on OOC matters. Don't you drag me into things that I am not involved in, based on your own assumptions.
Also-also there is only one Rockwell.

[Soapy]

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:31 am[/url]"]instead of, you know, just be a Limwell/Rockwell

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but your bias is showing.

[iStabOreos]

This has gone on long enough let's all just say that Airide is the true god and be done with it.

[Egil]

I have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
Also Victoria doesn't discriminate with her company in the least. She does not, has not, and will not ignore people based on OOC matters. Don't you drag me into things that I am not involved in, based on your own assumptions.
Also-also there is only one Rockwell.

I didn't mean to say that the Limwells or whoever plays the Rockwell guard (hey there) are elitist or cliquish in nature (that might be the case with the Limwells, I 'unno personally). I was just thinking of surnames/family names of well-known characters to list as an example of what would make it easier to enjoy the game and those two names came to mind. I don't have any relevant criticism of either family or the players that play those characters, so. I apologize for any vague/mistaken association.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but your bias is showing.

If you didn't know what I meant, then you could've asked for me to clarify, just like I did when some of your posts didn't really get your point across. Since you didn't, it makes you seem eager to get into an argument/derail the topic, which gives me a pretty bad first impression of you.

Beyond all of that- I don't think there's any individual person, character, or group that's holding the game or community back. People harp on and on about how an abundance of happy-go-lucky lesbians and teenage vampires and what have you kill the atmosphere, but I can chalk a lot of that up to roleplay preferences rather than anything objectively wrong with certain trends. This isn't about trends or anyone's specific RP. It's really just the prison system and the lack of plot progression that strike me as stuff we should talk about in-depth.

[Chaos]

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:31 am[/url]"]Of course, I don’t expect people to just be let off for trying to murder random innocent people in public. However, the thing is that most people stick very close to large areas of traffic (the arena, Cellvsich, etc) and you may not be able to figure out when they leave those areas without skype-no-jutsu and that obviously isn’t fair. And regardless of how smart you play your cards, you already admitted stated down in your post that it’s better to just ‘find the right crowd’ instead of trying to make anything major happen, so you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is it that villains/conflict igniters need to be smarter or should they just toss in the towel and focus on cliquing and elitism?

They need to figure out how to not get themselves in Prison AND work with the people that will actually react, not the people that will fight and then go 'NO YOU DON'T GET TO KILL ME' before turning around and reporting to the Guards. Intentionally ignoring the fact that some players can and will pull that kind of awful out of nowhere is going to shut down any hope you have of 'creating RP'.

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:31 am[/url]"]Sure, but if you’re arrested for self-defense because a guard felt that you were in the wrong for not allowing yourself to be harmed outside of a spar without putting up a fight (hi) or for any other seemingly insignificant/non-criminal charge, you’re fucked because of the additive nature of the prison system- and I’m not the sort to OOC’ly complain whenever anything goes wrong. I just sorta’ allow them to accumulate so that I can make a case for charge all at once- and ensure that it’s not just a one-off isuse. Plus, there are a couple of cases of guards covering for their IC (and potentially OOC) friends and comrades who commit crimes. With that sort of stuff happening, what you’ve said here doesn’t really convince me that it’s fair from an OOC perspective. It makes sense IC’ly, but I don’t want to have to make a second character just to get some RP on an RP game.

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:31 am[/url]"]I feel that being friends with a guard OOC’ly and cliquing up with them is much more effective for avoiding jail than anything you could do IC’ly- beyond being a completely passive bystander in all cases, of course.

"If there is a case of a Guard incorrectly performing their duty, talk to me. If there is a problem with the Guard(s), I will correct them."

I have repeated this (to various degrees) at least a thousand times, and so far, it seems that a serious minority have actually done it. Everyone seems to go, 'the guards are incompetent/corrupt/useless/etc.', but when almost no one provides an actual case (and I usually find that the Guards were doing their job in those situations), I find it hard to believe that people aren't just whining out of their asses. Right now, you appear to be doing the exact same thing; claiming that there's cases of Guards in the wrong but not actually stepping forward and providing them so I can see what problems (if any) need to be rectified. If you can prove me wrong, then do so. But do not stand here and claim 'THE GUARDS ARE FULL OF CORRUPTION AND CONSPIRACY' when you can't even provide anything concrete.

That being said, I am also quite vigilant in overlooking what the Guards are doing. OOC 'buddy benefits' aren't a thing on the Guards, and if I ever saw it, I'd shut it down in a heartbeat. Again, if you can provide something solid on the matter, I can deal with it. But as far as I've seen, the Guards are acting without particular bias.

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:31 am[/url]"]I agree that consequences are necessary to maintain realism and some sort of common sense. I don’t agree that you should experience pseudo-bans when you haven’t done anything wrong OOC’ly. I agree that if you say something stupid in Law’s End and get your arm cut off, that’s completely on you. I don’t agree with guards being arrest-happy when the prison system is a heavily punishing one. It’s a huge incentive to not do anything productive, not as much of an incentive to be ‘smarter’ about one’s actions when it comes to making conflict/being violent.

Let me make this clear:

The Guardship (and Prison, by extent) is IC first and foremost.

Going to jail is not a pseudo-ban. In fact, the current Fort Arjav was built to allow prisoners (unless locked up in Solitary) at least something to do while they're imprisoned. Granted, some portion of those features have yet to be added, along with the remaining maps for the Fort. However, at the same time, most people just log off once they're in and not bother with them until the sentence is up. It seems a little dry to call the current Jail a 'pseudo-ban' when most don't even bother.

....If you feel like that the current system is really that bad and would either have me go with the alternative I've suggested in my prior post, get some kind of tally on who would be for it; if there's enough people that will roll with it, I will try it out. If you think you have a working alternative, provide one. Know, however, that any system for sentences should dish out a punishment equal to their crimes: If they've committed small time, they suffer small time. If they've committed big time, they suffer big time. If they're irredeemable, I'll let them know that they're close to getting executed.

Egil » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:31 am[/url]"]I’m not going to indulge in elitism just to avoid a bad prison system. That’s what I think you mean by ‘find the right crowd’. I’d rather address why I feel that its’ bad and, if enough people agree, get it changed-… instead of, you know, just be a Limwell/Rockwell, or only interact with folks in a specific skype group for convenience, or ignore people that are cancerous/edgy/etc in IC and only RP with folks that I jive with OOC’ly. If this is a roleplay mandatory game, then I’m not going to take shortcuts. I want to experience SL2 as a whole- and if the experience is poor, then I want to offer my thoughts on what improvements I can see working.

You may have heard this argument made a million times before or these sorts of suggestions presented a million times before, but since I have not heard your million rebuttals, I’m not going to simply accept ‘This is how it is because it makes sense IC’ly, Dev does what Dev wants, and that’s just how things are’. I want to know why things are the way they are.

You are completely incorrect. There isn't a slightest bit of 'elitism' in 'find the right crowd'; it's common sense. Would you roleplay with people that no-sell most of everything you do and potentially play their characters as labels, or the people that can at least decently react and show that their character is a person? While yes, cliques that shut off absolutely everyone else are detrimental, just because you're operating in a group of certain people doesn't automatically make you one of those cliques. It's up to each person on how much they leave their doors open.

[iDarkCara]

Hello,

First let me start by saying it seems there are two very distinct sides to this and I am stuck in the middle.

If you don't know me, I am Guard Roje Sutia. Many of the above posters whom aren't guards have dealt with me directly. After reading all of these replies, I thought it was time I give my two cents. Without further ado, lets begin.

[headline=1]Temporary Bans for IC Actions[/headline]
Not being able to do anything as there is no one ever at the jail to rp with, and/or the RP is static and pointless.

I see the point here. I can understand how it feels to be put in timeout for your actions and away from the entire game in a sense. As it's been noted in this thread, there is a difference between OOC and IC, but this is an RP mandatory game after all, and it always has been.

OOC characters (Characters who claim to be OOC at a certain time or for example The some-variation-of-OOC alias) have been given a bit of a pass because they're simply testing things, grinding levels, checking shops, building houses, not able to RP in depth at the moment, going somewhere to RP, etc. Stuff that doesn't involve the IC realm.


It has been noted if you get in trouble OOCLY (bans, etc.) Your IC character is obviously impacted. The same is true in the reverse. IF I beat a corbie down, and then (With their permission of course) ripped their wing off, I would be subject to prison time. If I had no further crimes at this moment, I would be given a Severe crime in the rating of something along the lines of Aggravated Battery. Resulting in 23 OOC Day Jail Sentence. Twenty Three days where really, I'm not interacting with anyone. I'm stuck in the fort and cannot do anything.

You could contact a guard over OOC or Skype (Most have their Skypes listed under their names here on the forums) and ask for them to come give you some RP. Normally when I've been asked, I have made time to come spend an hour or so roleplaying and conversatin'.


Here is a direct quote from Chaos on crimes and their times; I'm probably not suppose to put this out, but I feel it should be public record.

Crimes that people commit are separated into three categories, each with different lengths (using IC days/OOC time as measurement):
Minor Crimes (1 IC day/3 OOC hours each): Anything considered a 'misdemeanor' in reality. Petty theft, vandalism, assault (see: intending to injure but not doing it), public intoxication and anything else that a street urchin/small-time street thug would most likely do would be a Minor Crime.
Major Crimes (8 IC days/1 OOC day each): Anything considered a 'felony' in reality. Battery (intending to injure and doing it), Arson, Kidnapping, and other 'serious' crimes fit the bill here.
Severe Crimes (184 IC days/23 OOC days each): Reserved for very serious crimes. Murder, Treason, Rape, Aggravated Battery and the like would go here. This is rather punishing to charge someone with; do not mistake this for Major Crimes.

To date, only 9 people have ever been charged with Severe Crimes. Two of those ended in Execution recently.

Some of the longest running sentences in the Criminal Records include those who have stacked up a variety of Major Charges and then commit a minor in fraction, followed by a Jail Time of 7 OOC day for a normally 3 hour OOC time. The stacking charges work in a sense to deter further crime for good reason.

1. However, I feel that minor charges should not factor in prior charge except minors; While in a reality it makes sense, in a game like this it becomes a seriously handicapping time.
   
   Example: Current Formula is: OOC Days to be served =(B*1/8+C+(D*23))
   
   Previous Charges: 3 minors 2 majors
   
   New Charges: 2 Minors
   
   Current Time to be served under current formula: 63 Hours.
   
   Time served with only Minors: 27 Hours.
   
   This would not apply to any Major+ charges and any previous Minors will factor into time to be served with a Major or above.

I feel that this would help to give the lesser offenders more breathing room to still play, but also still factor into charges going forward as their should be severe punishment if you wish to commit a crime ICly.


[headline=1]'OOC' Friends[/headline]

I fully believe every guard currently serving are very upstanding community individuals. They all separate their OOC bias when dealing with IC natures. You're free to say what you'd like about the guards OOCly including myself, but I assure you they are each held to the same standard as everyone and nothing gets by with Chaos and to a lesser extent Sly noticing.

1. -- That being said. There are obvious advantages to being friends OOCly to a guard. Primarily because you are likely friends with their IC character. And much like reality, being friends ICly tends to help you when you get into legal trouble. Benefit of the Doubt comes to mind.
   
   I'm not saying go suck up to a guard and get less sentences, this is not how this works. I myself have given breaks to a variety of people I never interact with OOCly. I just try and play it case by case. If you want to complain about an arrest the moment it happens and say this is bulls#%@ and cry for a GM...they're not going to help you. The most important thing in these arrests is keeping your emotion 100% IC. The moment you take it to OOC, you've no case.
   I fully believe every guard currently serving are very upstanding community individuals. They all separate their OOC bias when dealing with IC natures.

   .
   
   For example. A few days ago, there was an incident where someone had explained about how they would brutally injure someone in a private whisper @ the arena. Though someone overheard, and reported it. I was forced to make a decision rather this was just smoke or an intent to actually murder someone. I resorted to pulling the parties aside and they stuck 100% ICly, I felt after considering their situation to let them go with a minor stay in the prison as a cool off period. A warning more than anything despite their few prior charges.
   
   -- On the other side. Many guards have alts whom have been arrested prior or even while they themselves have been a guard. In fact, a veteran guard, even before I joined, recently had an alt arrested for a Severe crime and served their time, all 27 OOC days.
   
   There is no special treatment, there is only RP treatment; at least as far as I'm concerned. If you want to talk to me ICly and sell yourself essentially, I may be more lenient on your charge and take the hit ICly for being soft on crime or what have you.
   
   That goes in reverse too. If you decide to do something stupid while Roje is a bit irritated for one reason or another (Red Iahsus hi), I may be inclined ICly to throw you in jail no questions asked for your crime.
   
   Is that fair? Possibly not...I just ask going forward, you keep everything IC when dealing with the guards. Keep in mind the rules as well including:
   1a - On the other hand, the guards are expected to only use their exceptions when necessary and to follow other rules. This means that they cannot force death upon anyone, use their exceptions outside of guard duties, etc. (If you think a guard's out of line, report it to a GM.)

There you go.

Please note thease are my opinions and not the opinion of the guard or otherwise related. This is purely from myself and stems from my own thoughts and not the thoughts or actions of any other guard.