[Neus]

Which, again, speaks to a bigger problem with Skip and would lead to things that normally 'shouldn't' happen like having GS up for an entire turn, forcing your opponent to risk activating it, and then having them be able to use another GS in the same turn.

[Kameron8]

Which, again, speaks to a bigger problem with Skip and would lead to things that normally 'shouldn't' happen like having GS up for an entire turn, forcing your opponent to risk activating it, and then having them be able to use another GS in the same turn.

I don't follow this example, how is this mechanically possible? But yes, I assure you for the third time I'm not disagreeing that Skip is the issue. I'm saying the suggestion to add a 1 momentum cost to it or put a cooldown on it is not addressing any of the issues the trait has.

[Neus]

I don't know what I was getting at since the same thing can be accomplished normally anyway without Skip. (GS1/2 at end of turn, next turn it's up until your turn, at which point it can be used again anyway). Anyway, the list of things that last until next turn is longer than you think and should be taken into consideration as well;

Guard Break
Stun
Black Wind
Skip
Quick Draw
Magic Energy (Dragon)
Destruction Energy (Dragon)
Knockdown Immunity
Stun Immunity
Shell Trigger
Combination Fighter
Flatfoot
Invoking
Snatch Spell
Shaded
Echolocation
Swaying
Geist Schritt

[Kameron8]

While it's good to know exactly what's effected, that comprehensive list doesn't reflect reality very well. Enemies won't flatfoot you then skip to remove the debuff, so unless someone is intentionally harming themselves the statuses listed here that actually have this issue currently are:

Black Wind
Quick Draw
Snatch Spell
Shaded
Swaying
Geist Schritt

And that's why I assume the original suggestion leaned towards hardcoding the change to some things in particular, not a large sweeping change to all until next turn statuses. Because I (and likely many others) certainly didn't know about all of these. But if the ones I listed above were changed to behave similarly to Guard, it would fix this specific exploitative behavior of Skip and allow us to focus on Skip in general later. If, however, the time to axe the trait is now, the least we can do is make sure it doesn't come back equally -- or even more -- oppressive.

[Neus]

Inconsistent behavior between them will lead to confusion and bug reports, so I'd rather not pick and choose exceptions. If anything Guard should be changed to function identically because the only reason it works the way it does is because it was added during a time when there was no 'until next turn' system.

[Kameron8]

The only things I can think of that address all of Skip's issues and interactions are either outright removing the trait, or having it permanently lower your initiative. I'm not sure how you would cleanly implement the latter, especially for situations like 4v4 fights or Crazy Dungeons; and that's before even approaching situations where someone boosts their Celerity after lowering themselves on the turn order.

Outright removing this trait will also make PvE a much bigger struggle, since skipping to allow mobs to group up or come to you is universally used. So, I'm not sure. I don't have a good catch all solution for this, especially not one that has consistent behavior across the board. That's why I would take being inconsistent over trying to deal with this now.

[Neus]

Well, I am drawing up my ideas for the GR trait rework, so I think having conversations on Skip now is useful. Whether that means it needs to be retired as a trait and made an innate thing, like Tactician and possibly Kick, or what adjustments need to be made to it.

I think the trait makes PvE much more tolerable for a larger variety of class combinations so I don't really want to remove it.

[Soapy]

Tactician, Kick, and Skip could certainly do with being innate, though with the (current) system this wouldn't a big deal at all, beyond no longer having to dump a few points in SKI and getting a couple more Traits to spend on +1 Stats.

And on that note, please keep in mind characters are built around the current Traits, so losing their +1-5 SKI/WIL/whatever with the rework could very likely mean they're denied a previously owned skill slot, youkai slot, Trait, etc. and might have to reset their stats.

[Neus]

If that happens then I will give out a non-tradeable respec fruit via presents.

[Chaos]

I think the trait makes PvE much more tolerable for a larger variety of class combinations so I don't really want to remove it.

In that case, why don't we try making Skip only work in PvE and see how PvP works without it? (To be honest, I don't see it doing too much, beyond the potential issue of that one Boxer passive)