[Ranylyn]

I'd like to echo that I think making adjustments to the other skills instead of skip is ideal. However, If, and I do mean IF, we MUST nerf skip itself, I've played a lot of games with skip/delay mechanics and here's my proposal based on those:

Skip does not delay your action directly until the end of the turn. You count as having half effective cel (for turn order purposes) per skip, and you can skip multiple times. Base momentum cost of 0, with repeat action penalty AND based on turn order (If you go 3rd, for example, then skip's base cost is 2m instead of 0.) If we think of each turn as being 6 seconds, for example, waiting for someone to charge over to you, who was waiting for you to make a move, won't leave you as much time to counterattack before the next round.

"But Rany, that will just make Cel an even worse stat!"

Will it really? If we make it harder for the slower character to outskip the faster one, is it really making Cel worse? If one person has 40 cel, and their opponent has 5, the first person can skip 4 times (41-20.5-10.25=5.125) for a grand total of 4m and still be in a better position than the character who is now going "6th" (So 5m just to try to out-skip, GG)

"But Rany, this is a shitty idea because why would you waste your own momentum to approach them when you can make them come to you!"

I agree completely which is why I'm against changing skip, obviously!

[Lolzytripd]

#cooldown for skip

[Ranylyn]

Can we not just make cooldown a universal autonerf for literally everything that anyone wants nerfed? I already have a few builds who are now reliant on normals because of cooldowns. Let's not get too carried away, please.

[Autumn]

It's not like Skip is the linchpin holding the cosmos in balance.

It is actually the linchpin holding fairness in balance, making skip 1m is a destructive idea and will quickly lead to scenarios that Kameron presented entirely.

And you can't deny that the bigger problem here is Skip itself, because it's so powerful without many drawbacks. If it made you give up some of your Momentum, it'd made sense thematically too. Or, alternatively, you're giving your opponents Momentum by doing nothing, giving them an extra 1M and potentially opening yourself up to a lot of pain if you use it mindlessly.

It's going to quickly lead to these builds being completely unbeatable, I'd rather skip just outright be removed as a trait than prefer this option, but if that's not the solve to this for you, then I'd prefer elemental resists and weaknesses not messing around with momentum either.


Elf with 42 SAN, covering up his dark weakness to resist all easily, all he has to do is install drowned woman to fuck over everyone in the game, and all I'd need to do is change him to be a CEL build to outspeed most people.



It'd lead to some pretty awkward scenarios too where you could skip to negate fleur entirely for one turn.

[Soapy]

Removing skip would make pvp incredibly boring, and it's still leagues better than every other suggestion.

I immensely regret creating this thread.

[Kameron8]

I don't think the problem is that extreme, Kameron. It's not like Skip is the linchpin holding the cosmos in balance. And you can't deny that the bigger problem here is Skip itself, because it's so powerful without many drawbacks. If it made you give up some of your Momentum, it'd made sense thematically too. Or, alternatively, you're giving your opponents Momentum by doing nothing, giving them an extra 1M and potentially opening yourself up to a lot of pain if you use it mindlessly.

The bigger problem is absolutely Skip itself. But a Momentum cost is not going to fix this issue, it will just change how people use the trait. If you sit at six momentum, you open yourself up to get trashed by resist messages. Instead of people using Skip to:

1. Invalidate some buffs, like Black Wind and Geist Schritt
2. Common sense check the opponent to see if they're paying attention or have Skip themselves

They will instead use the new, 1 Momentum costing Skip to:

1. Invalidate some buffs, like Black Wind and Geist Schritt
2. Common sense check the opponent to see if they're paying attention or have Skip themselves
3. Force the opponent to lose a momentum, which is far more impactful against certain setups than others.

Nobody will just let themselves be double-turned just because it cost the opponent a momentum. Doing so is still essentially throwing the fight, and very few people will disagree with that notion. All changing Skip in this manner will do is open up certain builds to exploit other people needing to skip.

Consider this: Who is hurt more by losing a momentum on skip? A mage who uses charge mind and has one left over, or a void assassin who can only achieve 3 hits with a full 7 momentum and two crits? The answer is obviously the latter, and the former can just choose to make the VA lose their third attack or succumb to instant invocation or charged up spells to their face. This is a thin argument given a VA should reasonably be faster than a mage, and may actually be capable of killing them in one turn, but the point that it kneecaps some people and doesn't effect others remains.

I would much rather see Skip deleted or delegated to a PvE only trait, just because of how much of a headache it is address directly. At some point or another there exists a cost detrimental enough to warrant not automatically counterskipping the opponent, but it's not 1 momentum, and it's not going to change this interaction with buffs that makes no sense.

[Neus]

Well, it's been suggested in the past that the level of resist needed to trigger momentum loss could be increased from 25% to a higher number, and I could see some of the resistance stamps getting lowered percentages since they're throwing a bit of a wrench into things (5% is pretty significant in the long run) to bring down resistances slightly.

In what way would a 1M Skip invalidate Geist Schritt?

[Kameron8]

Well, it's been suggested in the past that the level of resist needed to trigger momentum loss could be increased from 25% to a higher number, and I could see some of the resistance stamps getting lowered percentages since they're throwing a bit of a wrench into things (5% is pretty significant in the long run) to bring down resistances slightly.

In what way would a 1M Skip invalidate Geist Schritt?

The same way the current one does -- if you're faster and they spent momentum to use it, you can skip to end the buff by bringing it to their turn.

[Neus]

They can skip you back with Muunden, so either way, it's not like you can escape from GS if someone really wants to put you to it.

[Kameron8]

They can and will skip you back, but unless they cast Geist Schritt a second time and lose 3 Momentum, the buff will fade. If they do use Geist Schritt a second time, the first one was invalidated. It's the same thing for Black Knights -- if they really wanted, they could invoke the black wind a second time and skip again, but they're now at a momentum deficit and had their first invocation/Geist Schritt totally made useless.