[KhalidtheGrey]

I wanted to bring up for discussion the skill point costs of passives and innates in general. It seems I'm not the only one off-put by how some classes (like BK and Ghost) can sink 30 points into their passives and innates and it's an attractive idea if not for the fact you have so little left for actual skills. I don't know if this is actually a problem or not but I'd like the topic considered.

Personally, if there actually is an issue, I could see some classes getting their innates and/or passives tuned down to 1-3 ranks, depending on the skills themselves.

[Sarinpa1]

This hardly qualifies for a post, but given the fact I've talked this over recently with someone, there doesn't appear to be an issue with the skill point amount and skills present. Nobody is forcing you to invest full five points into innates/passives, nor into actual skills.
What you propose is lessen variety and increase...well. Nothing beneficial would come from this.

So no.


Also next time try to provide specific examples, not just throw up a topic and "people discuss"

[KhalidtheGrey]

Erg, I don't want to list every BK non-active and half of kensei/ghost. Those are the ones I'm most familiar with having the full ability to dump everything into non-actives.

[Chaos]

Most classes don't need their inate sinks toned down.

However, I think Black Knight is worth discussion here. If I recall correctly, proper use of its passives/inates demand the most SP out of any class' passives/inates so far (20~30 SP), and not to terribly great effect, unlike Ghost's set.

[Sarinpa1]

Let's look at them.
One's your standard "Insert point to get one stat, one bonus stat at max rank." Classes have those. Some even to a crazy amount (/eyes verglas)
Moving on. Negation. That's part of BKs schtick, standard crit evasion buff, similiar to let's say, archers hit buffs. Moving on.
Sudden death. Now, how is your WIL looking, how often do you expect to take close to no damage? You'll decide how long do you need them to be feared. So, there comes the heavy variety in how much points you need to invest. Two points would be more than fine for usual encounters, sometimes you might want more. Like if you're planning to build with death knighting.
Moving on.
Prophylaxis. Standard hit boost comparable to other classes. Matters if you even basic attack as a soldier or not.
Stalemate. This one's pretty powerful and deserves the point dump for rather obvious reasons.
Zugwangdong whutevs - boosts power AND hit.
Indominable, pretty stronk, deserves point dump.
As far as I can tell, you can either exploit every little bit of boost to power you get from fear, or you can go for autohits. Or you can balance it out..and get only some of the bonuses. Like if you have no issue with hit, and are deciding between prophy and zug, there you have it.

As great as it would be to have it all at max rank, it'd be a bit too strong, the class'd be getting incredible def bonus, dmg reduction bonus, hp bonus, hit bonus. okay power bonus and an evade bonus (since fear)

black knight is a very solid choice for any tanking character and as someone that always uses it whenever they make a tank (currently using it, too), i've never had an issue with deciding what i need and what i can go without

[KhalidtheGrey]

>Zugzwangdong
my sides

Moving on, don't mind me.

[Rendar]

BK, for it's innates/passives require 35 SP, leaving you with 0 to actually buy anything with.

Zugzwang gives +POW / +HIT vs people who are afraid (not of you, but in general). Which means you'll need FEAR OF DEATH applied, or you're going to need to take SUDDEN DEATH. Which requires WIL. And the fear duration is RANK (+1 if you get to at least R3). Which means you're probably going to want to max that out if you care for hit. Which, if you also care for hit, you're probably going to want to take Prophylaxis, which gives MORE hit if they deal low damage to you.

How are you going to reduce their damage that low? Why with Indomitable giving 10% (20%) DR and negation giving 40 crit evade. Also, if they're using a weapon, you might as well take Stalemate, while we're at it, to give you a SCALED DEF/2 + (5*RANK)% chance to get 75% DR if they attack you from pretty much anywhere.

That leaves you with 5 points. You can either get hanging since you wanted mobility + hit... Forced Move (to drag people to you)... or you could take their other innate and get +6 Defense.

BK has a literal fuckton of innates/passives that all require R5. If Kensei's innates all took R5, you wouldn't be able to use the class for anything but innates if you wanted them all. I say just split the effects so they're all 3 rank abilities. Across 7 skills, that's an extra 14 points to help make each and every BK a bit more diverse instead of "Better take BK for the passives/innates, I guess."

[Sarinpa1]

bulwark, other means of inflicting fear, yet again, no need to dump all points into sudden death

you are far from obligated to do a massive pointdump into every passive innate, infact, you're not obligated to even get those hit/power bonuses. you either can hit them through your means of hit or obtain an autohit. the options are pretty good
on other hand
"better grab bk for all the innates passives" will turn into "better grab bk for all the innates, passive, poison cure, fear/hesitation charm cure" etc.
soldiers have offensive skills and if you're not packing a melee class as your other class, you are unlikely to rely on basic attack anyway

[Lolzytripd]

http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.p...ter#p24209

[KhalidtheGrey]

You're not obligated to win or even do well either.

Also, for comparison. Since I lack the expertise to really voice on it, how do the innates/passives of BK compare to the actives? Are their actives even largely that good outside of Hanging and Forced Move? And maybe one point castling.