[JoseJoseRSD]

This post is to talk about Lupine stuff that could probable be changed for better, here are some points that I want to talk about (Also, gonna redo the other posts I have made, because they seem to have too many posts to talk about, so I want to do them better so we get a clearer debate)

1. Lupine base stats

Lupine get buffs for both WIL and RES, but the bases for theses stats are too low, meanwhile... Celetiry and Guile have 2 base stats for some reason, Felidaes have about 1 point in WIL, DEF and RES, so why Lupine do not get theses two stats, Celerity and Guile, decreased for one point each one, then get their resistance buffed at least to 5 base resistance? they are not magic users, but that does not mean they should die when a fire burns, would it not make sense that they have shamanic traditions which for some reason increase their resistance against magic things but dont make them mages by default? also, what is the usage for thoses 2CEL and 2GUI? if I wanted theses stats, I could have just picked Felidae.

So the suggestion is, decrease the base CEL and GUI of Lupine from 2 to 1, then use it to increase RES, it makes no sense that they get heavy buffs to resistance (and WIL but RES is much better), but have such a bad base for a stat that Lupines want.

Obviously, Dev kind of configured the base stats of Lupine to be based around using Ghost, they get 3LUC, 0FAI, 4SKI, tons of STR, 2CEL and GUI to still make dodging and critting viable, but I think Ghost and stats overall need some tweakings before being a us

2. Lupine Warcry

It does not deal great damage, the status effects are Fear and Celerity, Fear is bad, why would I want to build around dodging in a character with 2base CEL? more importantly, the Fear is often excused with the fact that there are classes which make usage of the fear, so that means my character is pigeonholed into using a class with bonus against feared opponents to make usage of Warcry, Hunted LV of Warcry is too low, YOU NEED 70 POINTS IN SAN TO GET TO THE HUNTED LV OF BLOODY PALMS, EVEN THEN, YOU ALSO HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE STATUS INFLICTION CHECK.

The skill requires a massive buff or change to be meaningful, because as of right now, Warcry feels a total skill slot waste unless you build a lot of things around it (Aka, Hexer and a lot of SKI/WIL/SAN to make usage of it, bonus effect against feared opponents or make usage of dodge, TOO MANY THINGS)

3. Lupine Instinct

Yeah... they get WIL... for some reason... Faith? well, it has crit evade and status resist... but no, it gives WIL... while WIL have many usages and is a versatile stats, theses usages are also class locked, BK and Boxer has great usage for them, but again, should Lupine be pigeonholed into theses classes?

While Faith is much more better of a tank stat, JUST LOOK AT IT, STATUS RESIST AND CRIT EVADE.

Willpower by itself... gives elemental damage... status infliction which I guess is ok for trying to use Warcry? outside of combat, it gives FP and WIL but inside of combat, FAI would be much more productive.

Also, how does it makes sense that Lupines are supposed to not be good with magic, but still get Willpower as one of their racial stuff?

I know FAI also has a very low base, a 0 base, but seriously, unless you pick specific stuffs to make usage of WIL, in combat, it has no better usage than FAI, which is much more of a tank stat.

So yeah, theses are three points that I want to talk about, hopefully everyone talks about it in different points and not focus in one single thing.

[Autumn]

Willpower doesn't directly correlate to magic, it also increases elemental ATK and can tie in with a character's actual Will to withstand or control impulse, such as making use of Weir Kounen, for example a Lupine with 50 SAN would gain 10 WIL and 10 DEF over the course of the fight, if they have Weir kounen this can translate to an extra 2% DR for free, also willpower means having more FP to sustain through a fight and also ties in to some BK passives as well.

This is also why Shaitans can be good at magic ICly despite having a low Willpower stat, its not unheard of for them.

Also just gonna say, for the first suggestion at least, it is not wise to mess with base stats this late into GR, best to leave 'em where they're at.

I do agree with Warcry being pretty pitiful though.

[Shujin]

1.) I don't think the stats are needed to be changed. 2 Base Cel/guile isn't much but you can still build sort of reliable dodge with it, people do it all the time.

2.) Warcry I can agree with, its in a really weird position, it's hunted level is really low. That it inflicts fear however is fine. The damage is also pretty "meh". Its a "fun" skill but it's effective use is also pretty low.

3.) Instincts. Lupine getting will is actually great! I love it, I haven's spend a single point in Wil but I can reach 300 FP, which I can fill up with stuff Like Power up. Status infliction also gets raised. I can also reliably use Cleanse body in later course of the fight to cleanse myself from pretty much all status effects.
The real issue I have with instincts in general is, that they are counted to the stat cap, making heavy selfbuffing classes contra productive to build so much san.
I also think Grimalkins should get their own instinct. Ski, Luc, Cel and Will (instead of guile) since they are the heavy magic users/hexers.

Also Lupines could get a little boon. Fleetfoot from Felidaes is REALLY good because move itself is an extremely powerful stat. Lupines are usually the more tanky type so I figured...Could they maybe get something like: +2Armor/Magic armor +2 for 10 Scaled San? (it woould cap at around +12/14 for heavy San people, I do not think thats too terrible, but still worth considering)

[Autumn]

A lot of what Shujin said is true, though if warcry gets a buff, it should probably just get a buff to the hunted amount, just being a flat 50% of your SAN should be enough to make it good, because it is AoE I don't think it's damage should be amped up if the hunted amount is given a buff.

[Shujin]

Yeah if the hunted level get bumped it doesn't need damage. It still gets the infliction treatment which should make it fine.

[Yark]

A lot of what Shujin said is true, though if warcry gets a buff, it should probably just get a buff to the hunted amount, just being a flat 50% of your SAN should be enough to make it good, because it is AoE I don't think it's damage should be amped up if the hunted amount is given a buff.

Oh yeah, level 30 Hunted won't be a problem at all.

By the way, there's already a prayer tool for increasing the level of Hunted applied by you. What's more, it allows instinct to trigger at higher HP thresholds for Kaelensia. I don't think War Cry is bad, but I do think it's a very niche ability particularly useful for anyone who doesn't use Bloody Palms.

I love you Jose (in a very macho and non-gay way), but I think readers should understand that this thread is born of a series of failed builds with Lupine being used as a scapegoat for those builds' failures.

[Miller]

Regardless of the original purpose of the thread, most would agree that Warcry is very underwhelming right now compared to other skills that inflict hunted and bloody palms. Currently Warcry uses Status Infliction for both the fear plus the hunted and also takes up a skill slot + three momentum to even use.

While I can agree that 50% is probably a bit too much for a racial; you have to invest into SAN to reach 20~30 hunted and also have enough status infliction to inflict it.

[Autumn]

Oh yeah, level 30 Hunted won't be a problem at all.

Dude, have you seen hunter's wind? Its lvl 30 hunted as well, and it doesn't seem to be a problem due to its low damage, also putting the extreme (60 scaled SAN) onto the table and calling it absurd is just wrong, think of it like this, high end for most builds would be 50 scaled SAN, while the average is 30 scaled.

Its not like bloody palms you have to actively spend momentum to apply the debuff, you don't get it as you're hitting someone with your big damaging skills.

Also another thing I forgot to mention, the FP Cost on warcry is massive, its like equal to your SAN and that can get ridiculous at higher amounts.

[Yark]

Oh yeah, level 30 Hunted won't be a problem at all.

Dude, have you seen hunter's wind? Its lvl 30 hunted as well,

It also requires you to be playing Summoner, with a max-level Sieryuu occupying one of your youkai slots. Grand Summoner in particular is in a strong spot at the moment, to be sure, but taking advantage of this specific debuff resigns you to using this class. Racial abilities are more splashable, naturally, so you have to be careful when you suggest such a massive buff.

It's kind of like suggesting that a race should have an innate 40 critical evasion, just because it's available on BK.

[JoseJoseRSD]

By the way, there's already a prayer tool for increasing the level of Hunted applied by you. What's more, it allows instinct to trigger at higher HP thresholds for Kaelensia. I don't think War Cry is bad, but I do think it's a very niche ability particularly useful for anyone who doesn't use Bloody Palms.

I love you Jose (in a very macho and non-gay way), but I think readers should understand that this thread is born of a series of failed builds with Lupine being used as a scapegoat for those builds' failures.

The prayer should not be taken into consideration, considering the fact that is a option, not a must, why would I pick that prayer when I could pick Lupine prayer which give phys def. and extends the status of Warcry?

Skill, stats, races, everything, they should be all judged alone and compared only within their peers (Warcry is a racial, it can only be compared to other racials) because extending the judgement and comparison range is really dumb and out of the argument itself, do you take into account that the prayer tool is a option among many too? what if I want to pick Lupine prayer? will I simply stick with a useless skill if I dont pick the other option? No, the Skill should be good enough to be a option regardless of external things.

Also, what does failing with lupine builds have to do with this argument? that is an ad hominem, you are not attacking the argument itself, you are attacking me, then, how does your argument actually defeats mine?

Actually, failing with lupine builds would actually give me experience and insight about many things wrong about the race than most people, so I dont know how that is even a problem anyway and as other stated, even 30 hunted would not be great enough.

Also, the main reason why Im saying that Lupine CEL and GUI should be lowered is to give more softcap to RES, A STAT THAT YOU WANT IN LUPINE, SERIOUSLY, LET LUPINE HAVE 5 RES BASE IN A STAT THAT THEY WANT SO BADLY, THE 2 POINTS IN CEL AND GUI DOES NOT MAKE SENSE COMPARED TO FELIDAE GETTING 1 POINT IN DEF AND RES, MOST PEOPLE DONT PLAY LUPINE TO DODGE AND PLAY VA.