[K Peculier]

The whole point of why people think Blood Spike is overtuned is not the damage it does at lower levels or builds that use it because its there.

Its the fact that someone who builds skill and luck and good vit (duelists) AT LEVEL 60 will always have the capacity to do ludicrous damage without much risk at all and use swords and axes which have better scaling than tomes and hybrid casting weapons.

Also the ultimate counter to literally every skill/spell thats overtuned is always "Just build resistance for it" is not a good enough argument because literally every skill/spell in the game can be countered with that argument its just that some spells have less counters than others -- Blood Spike being a huge offender.

If all that seems like nonsense then yes- "Just build ice and water resistance lul"

[PantherPrincess]

The whole point of why people think Blood Spike is overtuned is not the damage it does at lower levels or builds that use it because its there.

Its the fact that someone who builds skill and luck and good vit (duelists) AT LEVEL 60 will always have the capacity to do ludicrous damage without much risk at all and use swords and axes which have better scaling than tomes and hybrid casting weapons.

Also the ultimate counter to literally every skill/spell thats overtuned is always "Just build resistance for it" is not a good enough argument because literally every skill/spell in the game can be countered with that argument its just that some spells have less counters than others -- Blood Spike being a huge offender.

If all that seems like nonsense then yes- "Just build ice and water resistance lul"

I named more than just elemental resist as an option but you seem to have skipped over that. Silence is a big thing in-game among many other tactics you can take (like ST or so on). The average duelist has very little sanctity to average, nowhere near mage status wall levels. I also named pretty much the risks of "spamming" (??? you can't since it has a CD) which you ignored as well or just failed to notice which are digging your own grave faster because it consumes 5% of your HP per use and hitting a double resist. I also put up a screenshot of a level 45 build with 60 scaled skill and 50 scaled vit using it since it does "ludicrous" damage but you didn't really bother with that as well. Quite frankly, yes, elemental resists are the most effective way to go to countering magical damage, arguing that something is "overtuned" because you refuse to do so is your problem. I'm not gonna go into a battle with a mage or any build that uses magical damage and expect to receive soft blows when I have no elemental resistances or magical defenses in general.When something has a clear connection like idk elemental magical damage and elemental resists that seems like a clear road path to me. One among many that is. And I don't know about you but Tomes scale just as great as Swords and Axes so I'm rather lost on where you're getting this from. A spell shouldn't have to be nerfed because you don't feel like slapping on a CoMC with a scarf and an umbrella to name a small example of how easy it is. Or use silence and add an etacof if you can to make it even worse. Or circle ring. Or Leviathan's Amulet. Hell there are even Youkai that absorb ice and water damage. The complaints for the damage are rather far stretched and overblown when you can see in two screenshots, one not even being mine and a higher level, that it doesn't even reach absurd levels.

[Snake]

...I'm sorry, master. Just this once. I'll make the skill actually unbearable...

River Sword and Ghost/Verglas.

But that doesn't matter. I'd lower the scaling but remove the cooldown on this specific skill. We shouldn't look away from the big ass threat, that is Scarlet Twister. The massive pull is ass, and can be used on a turn-by-turn base, making you able to manipulate the battlefield constantly if you are a Priest/LB/Monk/Spellthief as subclass. (Even worse on Priest and LB's part, since they actually have some spells that use Water ATK and can constantly heal themselves, making them end in a win-win situation.)

If the cooldown ain't the way, then could the pull consume the Claret Call and make them unmarkable for 2 rounds or something? Deadass it ignores Spiked Threads and all that jazz. It's super unfair.

[iStabOreos]

Guys come on, it's not that bad. We just need to buff it more.

Water Weakness. Winter's Bite. Red Rain to make sure they don't get any ideas about running away.

[PantherPrincess]

Cool, let me just VA/Hexer that so I can Black Bolt you for instant silence and then Wash Away either status and then Obscure Claret Call off. Oh and if you decide to come close again let me just throw on an Etacof to restrict you further for the whole match. Naming one gimmick doesn't make something supremely broken, it's just a gimmick. Everything has a counter. Water Weakness will not stop me from installing a plant youkai.

[Snake]

Cool, I swap to a screamer, get rid of the silence, and oh hey look MOAR RENGE. I hit you from the other side of the map and keep hitting you down until you die. If my HP Is low? Hold this Ether L-vitation.

And can we not compare a Main Class-only way of counter-playing with something you can do for much, much less setup? Really? Getting SUMMONER main class solely for the sake of proving a point? Sorry to say but it's plain stupid to get someone to swap their actual classes, equipment and more for 1 fight just because one magic spell is busted, and then swap back to what they were.

That's not counterplay at all, it's just a big ass waste of time when everything can be solved by just chipping that bloody scaling down. And even though they manage to counter Blood Spike? Hold this effortless Silence, hold this -40% PDEF/MRES, hold this Rebound full healing if there's a gank onto you.

Nerfing two magic spells won't be the end of the class, ffs. Ghost has much more going for it, and those two are just the big dick numbers as of now.

[Lewdcifer]

I personally agree that Scarlet Twister and Bloody Spike could both go with a proper nerf. Twister has considerable synergy with other features such as cinders and frostbite ice sheets for the madmen. My opinion is as follows:

For Scarlet Twister, taking into account its HP cost, my suggestion is that we give it a brief cooldown (2 or 3 rounds) and maybe reduce the scaling by a little bit (from 115% Wind/Water ATK to somewhere between 90% and 100% Wind/Water ATK, all of this at rank 5); this way players will have to think more about when to use it.
For Bloody Spike, a reduction in scaling and maybe even range could suffice. Given that its HP cost is smaller than Twister, its scaling should be proportional to this difference: from 115% Ice/Water ATK, it could go between 80 to 90% Ice/Water ATK; all of this at rank 5. As for the range, perhaps capping it at some point could prevent players from assuming Grindylow status. I don't believe that this skill deserves a cooldown, and if anything, it shouldn't go beyond 1 round.

Like Snake said; these changes won't really harm Ghost much, given that it has several other things that are making it a strong class nowadays.

[Autumn]

It's worth mentioning that it has to go through resistance/magic armor for each damage application as well.

It is worth mentioning but I don't think an average character sans a zeran is going to ever reach an amount of magic armor that matters in this case, there is currently one torso armor that reaches a large amount of magic armor, considerable enough to reduce the damage of blood spike to even below single target spells in its current state.



Consider for a moment, how much more damage Blood Spike does than Libegrande which is one of the highest scaling evoker spells, this is against an arena combatant which had around 5 or 6 magic armor and 40 res.

When it comes to single target spells vs multi target spells, the multi target spell only has to go through magic armor one more time than the other, and unless you can reduce the damage to below their magic armor value (Usually 5-10) which is unrealistic, it would almost always be worth it to use blood spike over any single target spell, because the single target spell has to go through the exact same defenses that multi target spells do, its not like pre-GR where RES was a fla value.

Also consider that the current multi target spells haven't really been seen as too broken in terms of damage (Averaging around 70/70 elemental scaling), the only exceptions to this were hexer spells that scaled primarily off of defensive stats just like blood spike and scarlet twister do, Black Bubble and Wretched Oil values had to be nerfed as well because of this.

Kiseki above my post basically reflected my thoughts here, as I stated in the OP, Scarlet Twister is fine as its current scaling in my opinion if it has a longer cooldown, while Blood Spike should have lower scaling for the consistency in which it can be output, I'd even consider Kunai's suggestion of having its cooldown removed if the damage goes down.

Ftr here are the base amounts vs a prinny using the same character, 85 Ice ATK and 66 Water ATK, if my water attack were higher (as I do not have the talent or any boosts to it) it'd do much more damage than this.