[Ryu-Kazuki]

I wasn't using "what if" builds, I was using current builds that are already set in place. Mine is a max of 126% because I don't choose to have a cursed / doomed weapon. You said yourself a lot of Papilions aren't mages, so how would this even be a problem? This doesn't mean I should have to rely on them just to have a chance, otherwise it makes my racial skills pretty shitty and forces me to go Hexer, but that wasn't even the point.

I was doing a comparison between WIL based Papilions, and non-WIL Papilions, and showing you how crippling it would be to anyone who doesn't use WIL. Melee Papilions would be severely undercut, especially if they don't get SKI and LUC, that's the luck of the draw with the formula, but seeing as the formula is already a problem to them, why should they be further stripped of their racial abilities just because people think they're "OP", when they're clearly not.

Yes, I'm fully aware if you recast Invite Insanity on the butterflies, they dispel, I mentioned it in the above post, AND I'm the person who suggested that it be added because of how difficult it was in the past to make their status activate near any enemy. This doesn't alleviate the whole, "may or may not actually activate" situation. So please don't try to use "just waste your M on it again and HOPE it activates a status that they may not be prepared against and might actually do something to them" as an argument.

As for what skills Immunize the statuses. I wasn't talking about a go to that negates them, I'm talking about skills that rid the effect. Technically I miscalculated, all 5 of them can be.

Guiding Light (Blind)
Silent Prayer (which might I add costs 1M) (Silence)
Cleanse Body (Poison, Fear, and Blind)
Steel Mind (Fear, and Charm)
Steel Blood (Poison)

That's all off the top of my head, and that's the current ones we have, more might be added later on for all we know. But here's the thing, those "OP" statuses they do, as I mentioned before, have a max level of 3, THREE. Some of them have a max of 2. Compared to other skills / racials that inflict status effects? That's far from OP. I'll name ONLY the ones that do these five statuses at their max ranks.

Black Bubble (Silence for 3 rounds)
Wretched Oil (Poison lv 30 for 3 rounds)
Fleeing Spectres (Fear for 3 rounds)
Eternal Darkness (Blind for 2 rounds)
Sudden Death (Fear for 2 rounds)
Altera (Blind 2 for rounds)
Pocket Sand (Blind for 2 rounds, once per battle)
Snake Shot (Poison Lv 5 for 3 rounds)
Black Rose (Charm Lv 2 or Blind for 2 rounds, only one per cast)
Drown (Silence for 3 rounds)
Poison Bite (Poison lv 30 for 3 rounds)
Cutthroat (Silence for 2 rounds, 3 rounds if on crit)
Black Bolt (Silence for 2 rounds)
Haunting (Fear for 2 rounds)
Absolute Fear (Fear for 3 rounds, and Silence for 2 rounds)

That's everything I had readily available on my characters. Yes, those are skills, minus Poison Bite. But looking at most of those skills, they're either the same duration, higher, or the same level or higher. They cost more FP, yeah, they cost SP, yeah. The difference in this is how miniscule / easily mitigated / ignorable the statuses of Butterfly Illusions are.

Lv 2 - 3 poison does, what? 5% HP damage? Less? That's pathetic and you can practically ignore that.
Blind? You have Blind Fighting, or if you're a Mage, Kaelensia or have an LB in your party, laugh at it.
Silence? You're not a Mage? Well fuck it and yolo that Papilion.
Fear? People generally ignore fear anyway. Plus, if you're a Mage, this still doesn't affect you.
Charm. Yes, here's the big one. But it's not the reason why this should change. It's entirely based on a level difference, and the main thing it does it just keeps you from attacking for a few turns. Use that time to either prepare something nasty for when it's over, because the instant they hurt you, it's game over. Yandere style.

These are five statuses, with easily curable, immunized, or ignored statuses. They may not land because of Status Infliction vs Status Resistance, or may not even end up as the status you want. In fact, they may not even be a full 20% all the way across the board, who knows how its coded. I hardly see charm inflicted as a status and I'm inclined to believe it's got a lower % chance than the other statuses.

If this is a racial balance thread, why are we trying to strip the Papilions of their racial and make it even less effective than it already is? If anything, right now Papilions suck and stick out as a one trick pony that should have just a tad bit more diversification so it's not Butterfly Spam all the time.

If you could choose to pick what status you wanted prior to detonation? Then yeah, I'd say it's OP. But as for now? It's more like a minor annoyance.

[MegaBlues]

I wasn't using "what if" builds, I was using current builds that are already set in place. Mine is a max of 126% because I don't choose to have a cursed / doomed weapon. You said yourself a lot of Papilions aren't mages, so how would this even be a problem? This doesn't mean I should have to rely on them just to have a chance, otherwise it makes my racial skills pretty shitty and forces me to go Hexer, but that wasn't even the point.

It's not unfair if you're not using everything in your favor to up your status chance. It's there, you're just not taking advantage of it. Also, 70% chance to inflict a status -is- a chance. It's a pretty good chance, too.

I was doing a comparison between WIL based Papilions, and non-WIL Papilions, and showing you how crippling it would be to anyone who doesn't use WIL. Melee Papilions would be severely undercut, especially if they don't get SKI and LUC, that's the luck of the draw with the formula, but seeing as the formula is already a problem to them, why should they be further stripped of their racial abilities just because people think they're "OP", when they're clearly not.

Some races are just better suited for some things than others. That's the nature of SL2. Also, why would a melee papillion -not- have Skill and Luck? That's like complaining that Black Rend is useless to mage Shaitans, when Shaitans are clearly made to be meleers. (Aside from the Akimbo power bullshit)

Yes, I'm fully aware if you recast Invite Insanity on the butterflies, they dispel, I mentioned it in the above post, AND I'm the person who suggested that it be added because of how difficult it was in the past to make their status activate near any enemy. This doesn't alleviate the whole, "may or may not actually activate" situation. So please don't try to use "just waste your M on it again and HOPE it activates a status that they may not be prepared against and might actually do something to them" as an argument.

. . . Are you grasping for straws? Invite Insanity -does- alleviate the whole "may or may not actually activate" situation. You can -force them to activate-. It sounds more like you don't like the fact that the status infliction chance formula is an actual chance now. Which is making you . . . Against making it cheaper to summon and activate them? Or the fact that people can cure them? I don't really get why you're against this.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

MegaBlues » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:35 pm[/url]"]

I wasn't using "what if" builds, I was using current builds that are already set in place. Mine is a max of 126% because I don't choose to have a cursed / doomed weapon. You said yourself a lot of Papilions aren't mages, so how would this even be a problem? This doesn't mean I should have to rely on them just to have a chance, otherwise it makes my racial skills pretty shitty and forces me to go Hexer, but that wasn't even the point.

It's not unfair if you're not using everything in your favor to up your status chance. It's there, you're just not taking advantage of it. Also, 70% chance to inflict a status -is- a chance. It's a pretty good chance, too.

I was doing a comparison between WIL based Papilions, and non-WIL Papilions, and showing you how crippling it would be to anyone who doesn't use WIL. Melee Papilions would be severely undercut, especially if they don't get SKI and LUC, that's the luck of the draw with the formula, but seeing as the formula is already a problem to them, why should they be further stripped of their racial abilities just because people think they're "OP", when they're clearly not.

Some races are just better suited for some things than others. That's the nature of SL2. Also, why would a melee papillion -not- have Skill and Luck? That's like complaining that Black Rend is useless to mage Shaitans, when Shaitans are clearly made to be meleers. (Aside from the Akimbo power bullshit)

Yes, I'm fully aware if you recast Invite Insanity on the butterflies, they dispel, I mentioned it in the above post, AND I'm the person who suggested that it be added because of how difficult it was in the past to make their status activate near any enemy. This doesn't alleviate the whole, "may or may not actually activate" situation. So please don't try to use "just waste your M on it again and HOPE it activates a status that they may not be prepared against and might actually do something to them" as an argument.

. . . Are you grasping for straws? Invite Insanity -does- alleviate the whole "may or may not actually activate" situation. You can -force them to activate-. It sounds more like you don't like the fact that the status infliction chance formula is an actual chance now. Which is making you . . . Against making it cheaper to summon and activate them? Or the fact that people can cure them? I don't really get why you're against this.

You clearly didn't read the long post I made a bit ago.

I said 70% was a good chance, yes, but it's still a chance. But considering you want to throw in what-if builds, I can slap every status resistance skill / item into the build and easily drop that blow 0%. That's not unfair, right?

Just because someone's a melee doesn't mean they automatically get great SKI or LUC. In fact they can great in one and shit in the other, depending on their build, but melees are going to solely focus on STR, and SKI before anything else.

I thought this thread was about making races up to par with others? Not shitting on ones that already aren't that great. Saying "this should only affect these types of this race" is forcing a meta and killing any desire for people to want to branch into other classes because their racial skills suck.

It sounds more like you don't like the fact that the status infliction chance formula is an actual chance now.

I actually as I've stated multiple times (yet like always nobody listens), said the status formula is fine. That doesn't excuse the fact that the statuses can be easily mitigated, or made miniscule if people have ways to make them useless, like that long list of status resistances to stack on top of base Status RES I could mention but choose not to.

I'm not against them being curable, that would just be stupid. Making them curable and all gives us reason to use the items / potions / skills that do so. In fact, I'm for more alchemy items to cure statuses. I'm against an FP upkeep because of how skills and other more useful things already cost enough chunks of FP to use in battle instead of throwing out a wimpy little illusion that may or may not actually do anything, which ends up being a waste of FP and a waste of time that I could've spent elsewhere. It devalues the racial abilities and makes them not even worthwhile for Mages or anyone else because of how pathetic their statuses actually are, a 2 turn duration, lv 3 status that I can immunize, negate, or ignore because my class isn't affected by it at all. These butterflies are not the end of the world and are already literally bugs that you can squash and hardly worry about. Whether you can (which I stated above, I was the person to suggest it because they were already useless to begin with) force them to activate or not doesn't guarantee they'll actually do anything other than waste time, and FP. I already stated above ways to avoid them entirely. I've stated a good number of skills that have better and worse statuses than they inflict showing how "OP" butterflies are, right? I've already stated above the number of ways you can cure them with skills alone.

Yeah skills, items and etc may cost M and all, but guess what. Just because you got inflicted with it the first time, doesn't mean you'll get inflicted by the same status twice in a row, or if at all.

[MegaBlues]

If you have every single item in the game to resist status effects, yes, that's fair.

Skill is more important than Strength, since actually hitting comes before damage. Unless you plan on spamming auto-hits.

I don't see how this is making Papillion any worse? The status effect change affects everyone who uses status effects. If a racial skill is -that- big a part of this race's supposed gameplan, then it might actually need a nerf instead of a change.

This change makes butterflies cost less overall, which you seem to not understand. 2 FP + 1 every turn vs 10 FP upfront means that if you actually plan on making use of the butterflies, it's cheaper.

And, again, you're complaining about them having the chance to fail. This means that, despite what you say, you feel that if you spend the time using a butterfly, the status should be guaranteed.

[Rendar]

bumpity bump.

[Neus]

No need to bump a topic if it's still on the first page and you have nothing new to contribute to the discussion.

[Jay]

Something else that seems bothersome. Racial skills and passives should not require a skill slot. This should apply to every single one available. Different races already have this addition (see: Shaitan), while others have to waste a skill slot for theirs (see: Wyverntouched).

[MegaBlues]

Dev has already stated that some racials requiring a slot is due to balance.

[Jay]

For instance, 'Absorb Poison' requiring a slot is not a good balance call. My point stands, and hopefully it's considered. And as steep as the skill pool formula is currently, I don't see a major issue if racial skills are a given.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

And as steep as the skill pool formula is currently, I don't see a major issue if racial skills are a given.

Play a Vampire a little more often, check their racials again, and then come back and say that. Those skills definitely should not be a given.