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[FOR EVENTMIN] Difficulty Suggestion
#1
This is going to be a pretty short post. First of all, I'd like to say that I've thoroughly enjoyed the two events I've participated in thus far, since it scratches my need to flaunt my build and stroke my ego. That being said, there's been a notable focus in these events on making the fights reasonably difficult. This makes sense-- but, I'd like to suggest making two difficulties for your mobs (if such a thing is even possible. I have no clue how the verbs for this sort of thing work out-- if it's too hard, disregard this thread.)

This is mostly to accommodate people who don't strive to make the most game-breaking build they can, but still want to participate. Still balanced around squads of course, but ask a group if they want the standard difficulty (the one we've been dealing with) or if they'd like an easier fight because their builds are incomplete / for RP purposes. That way it doesn't feel unfair for those whose builds aren't finished, etc.

Again, not a complaint on the difficulty. I've enjoyed my part in these events, so far.

PS. There was a debate on whether to put this here or in balance fu, but I figured balance fu was better left to stuff specifically Dev deals with. (And if there's a dedicated place for eventmin suggestions, I'm oblivious to its existence.)
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#2
This suggestion is noted and doing that has been mentioned, but this could have probably gone in event discussion on the discord, rather than here. I'm not sure suggestions meant for a specific group of people belong here... but to be honest I've never seen a suggestion of this kind either, so treading new ground.

Other eventmins won't quite be as active on the forums so might not see this, if you intended to reach all of us, which is why I say best there.
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#3
I'm not in the discord, and don't really intend to be. And that's a big part of why I didn't know where to post this, but alas, it's reached the target audience well enough. Your events are the only ones I've participated in thus far anyway.
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#4
I think it was stressed enough the fact that those specific events being hard for the sake of being hard are not palatable for the populace. We want something that will aid us in making our own RP, not to be spoonfed hard mobs and stress during fights. I honestly didn't like one bit how poorly planned those were, and also the mindset that "Hard mobs are fun mobs."

Nah.

Next time, try making events that are intently underwhelming, then adjust from ground up, not from sky down. I personally hate being a LV1 Adventurer stuffed into an event where the enemy mobs are like fighting the Demon Lord LV99.

And don't get me started over the inconsistency of mobs-to-IC. Where the hell do their strength come from? Why can't players do the same or even be comparable? Why are CORPSES stronger than your seasoned, LV60 Adventurer again in terms of sheer martial mastery? Why are the screech of MuTaTeD insects and scorpions shitting out fire for 400 damage over round more crippling than fighting an army of Spatials?

Take it easy on the following ones. Be pessimistic. Don't go for big. Go for -simple-. Simple is always reliable and effective. Simple even opens room for the players themselves make their own narratives, so you don't need to take all the weight on your shoulders. In the end, that's what eventmins are for.

Making people smile and feel accomplished that they did a thing IC.

Having to ALWAYS be super-meta-well-prepared in those events is just stressing, demotivating and honestly, a kick in the community's dicks. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, and next time I expect better. You can do it. All you need is open your eyes and ears to what people have to say, and play around it. Not at what you think it's cool.

Oh yeah, this is for all eventmins. But some are probably already aware of what I mean, others aren't. Eyes open, friends.
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#5
Please do not determine what our mindsets are for us, first of all. I can tell you now that the mindset certainly was not that the mindset was that hard = fun. The mindset that was more that I wanted the things people faced to be actually interesting, and so I tried to keep them from as feeling as, well... basic as normal mobs. Because people are tired of the same old same old, and I've seen that constantly said over and over.

Furthermore, they weren't hard just for the sake of being hard, either. The swarm was made with the idea of giving people the idea that they are dealing with an overwhelming amount of numbers, but if I were to just slap something like black beasts in there? People would get bored, quick. Same reason for why some liberties are taken in what the mobs are capable of compared to players - because making something that pales in comparison isn't fun either. Nobody will feel satisfied killing something that was no contest to them -  just as people aren't exactly satisfied killing regular mobs now. I'm not about to fully emulate something people are tired of and expect people to be happy with that.

The swarm helped people form their own RP. It gave them a reason to be in a place at a certain time, and as much as you can say that was because of the people who made it happen, without something to bring those people there in the first place you wouldn't have got the atmosphere that was there before the event that day. In that aspect, I think it succeeded.

The idea of having to be super meta was because of balancing issues and that will improve over time, and mobs will come down to size to feel fairer to more people in coming events. Other than that, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on the mindset that simple is always effective

For more narrative driven events, those take more time, more effort. Which is why you haven't seen any yet - they're still being crafted out for the people who want those kinds of events. Each of these smaller events served a purpose (and served it well), and for those who don't feel they've been covered by these events, just remember that. Those kinds of events will come, you just need to give them time.

In the mean-time, these tie in events exist. They make the world feel more alive without guiding you through a story crafted by someone else, and instead encourage people to gather together in ways they normally wouldn't to make their own RP in a way that isn't standard.

Sorry, Kunai. Events will get better, but you may need to temper your expectations. Quite a few people have enjoyed these events when the tweaks were finally gotten right and I don't intend to change things too much for these particular events. Expanding on areas that are lacking, and cutting down on things that went overdone, sure... but not completely changing it to please an opinion I've only seen so far from one person.

Not every event will be like this, though. Others on the team will be planning more narrative events, and I'll be planning some too... but the swarm is as simple as I'm going to make things myself. Just a group of challenging mobs that give people a reason to pay attention to a certain area for a little while, and give people something to talk about. That's all they are, even if things weren't perfect first time.
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#6
(07-26-2020, 07:54 PM)WaifuApple Wrote: Please do not determine what our mindsets are for us, first of all. I can tell you now that the mindset certainly was not that the mindset was that hard = fun. The mindset that was more that I wanted the things people faced to be actually interesting, and so I tried to keep them from as feeling as, well... basic as normal mobs. Because people are tired of the same old same old, and I've seen that constantly said over and over.

Furthermore, they weren't hard just for the sake of being hard, either. The swarm was made with the idea of giving people the idea that they are dealing with an overwhelming amount of numbers, but if I were to just slap something like black beasts in there? People would get bored, quick. Same reason for why some liberties are taken in what the mobs are capable of compared to players - because making something that pales in comparison isn't fun either. Nobody will feel satisfied killing something that was no contest to them -  just as people aren't exactly satisfied killing regular mobs now. I'm not about to fully emulate something people are tired of and expect people to be happy with that.

The swarm helped people form their own RP. It gave them a reason to be in a place at a certain time, and as much as you can say that was because of the people who made it happen, without something to bring those people there in the first place you wouldn't have got the atmosphere that was there before the event that day. In that aspect, I think it succeeded.

The idea of having to be super meta was because of balancing issues and that will improve over time, and mobs will come down to size to feel fairer to more people in coming events. Other than that, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on the mindset that simple is always effective

For more narrative driven events, those take more time, more effort. Which is why you haven't seen any yet - they're still being crafted out for the people who want those kinds of events. Each of these smaller events served a purpose (and served it well), and for those who don't feel they've been covered by these events, just remember that. Those kinds of events will come, you just need to give them time.

In the mean-time, these tie in events exist. They make the world feel more alive without guiding you through a story crafted by someone else, and instead encourage people to gather together in ways they normally wouldn't to make their own RP in a way that isn't standard.

Sorry, Kunai. Events will get better, but you may need to temper your expectations. Quite a few people have enjoyed these events when the tweaks were finally gotten right and I don't intend to change things too much for these particular events. Expanding on areas that are lacking, and cutting down on things that went overdone, sure... but not completely changing it to please an opinion I've only seen so far from one person.

Not every event will be like this, though. Others on the team will be planning more narrative events, and I'll be planning some too... but the swarm is as simple as I'm going to make things myself. Just a group of challenging mobs that give people a reason to pay attention to a certain area for a little while, and give people something to talk about. That's all they are, even if things weren't perfect first time.

I'll give it two months. Most of what i've seen from the myriads of people I can see seemed to have disliked both events and just felt it was a waste of time in the event feedback channel. Why? Hell if I know. Do I care much? Not all that much. But a vast majority, like talking 15+ people here seemed to only have mostly negative things to say about it. And while i'm not in the SL2 Discord or anything, all i've seen was a literal entire segment or two of just terrible shit/dislike of the swarm then like three people saying they liked or were 'fine' with the swarm. So I could say that it was a mere selective instance but then i'd be even more disappointed if I did go in there and saw it wasn't.

Undead meme event also seemed to have the same thing for it just with slightly less people who disliked it and more who just thought "i mean it was mediocore at best" and since i've not participated in any of them, not much more I can say. But I don't think i've yet to find anyone who directly even mentions the stuff ICly so far beyond "I fought necromancer but in a forest instead of Lorywell" and "I fought tons of bugs but not at Bai Kai" more or less. And OOCly, it's pretty much negativity in most avenues that aren't mindless praise.

I've a minimal ounce of faith. I'll not hesitate to say as such. And alas, only you can prove me wrong. Have fun with that. Personally, i'm likely not gonna attend too many events until they've proven to at least be competently balanced or have more reason than doing what a simple LFG can do just with extra mobs. But that's just my take. Don't let it get ya down too much. Or really, at all.

Again.

Only you can prove me wrong. No one else.
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#7
(07-26-2020, 09:57 PM)HexGirlBestGirl Wrote: And OOCly, it's pretty much negativity in most avenues that aren't mindless praise.

Just because the praise does not correlate with the typical pattern of responses, it does not make it 'mindless'. Even if the assumption you appear, based on your manner and sweeping statement here, to be operating under (whereby only friends from some 'clique' - which Appo does not have - will offer compliments to boost confidence) is correct, it is still being done to serve a purpose - i.e. NOT throwing a newly-elected Eventmin to the wolves after a couple of setbacks just because you don't personally approve of Dev's selection and wish to see them replaced.

Moreover, your apparent assumption is likely (objectively, actually, since I have left praise myself) false, because there are many positive aspects to the events that have been run so far and we have been given what we asked for, in an experimental form, which will be refined over time.

You have already mentioned that you are not on the Discord, and therefore you have either NOT viewed the event feedback or are receiving selective screenshots or second-hand information that you are drawing your own conclusions from. With this in mind, does it not seem a little strange for you to be using this information as a source for your argument? An argument which is not even constructive?

(07-26-2020, 09:57 PM)HexGirlBestGirl Wrote: So I could say that it was a mere selective instance but then i'd be even more disappointed if I did go in there and saw it wasn't.

You have also mentioned that you have not attended any of the events yourself, so again - your information is obtained through second-hand sourcing which, from the structure of your argument here, appears to be strongly biased.

(07-26-2020, 09:57 PM)HexGirlBestGirl Wrote: But that's just my take. Don't let it get ya down too much. Or really, at all.

Saying this immediately after a post worded and structured in the way that yours was does not in the slightest bit cushion the blow. You could have responded to this thread by quoting the numbers and the second-hand sources you have used in order to obtain this information, and left it at that. But you haven't, you've gone on to actually voice a lack of faith in this particular person which an outside observer will interpret as a personal attack.

That's just not cricket, within the bounds of forum etiquette. While Kunai on the other hand has been quite brash with his post, he is at least questioning the handling of the events because he is passionate about them and wants to see them improve. Where are you, in all this? All I see is somebody standing on the sidelines, with little interest in getting involved and thinking that the world will stop spinning just because they do not.

--------

Now. I myself, was at one of these events, and I was too busy to attend the other. I do possess a meta build, and I'm not shy about it. Nonetheless, I did not find the mobs at the first event (BEFORE an opportunity to refine anything was even available) overly challenging. I can see why they would have been, but looking at the group setup of that particular event, a lot of characters did not have what in MMORPG terms would be considered a 'functional party'.

Yes, there are balance issues that need to be ironed out. They will be. I am not in the slightest bit interested, even as a rejected Eventmin applicant myself, in trying to undermine other Eventmins simply because they did something I didn't like on their first couple of swings.

We're a fucking community. Act like it.
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#8
Before this develops into an argument, please be considerate, and offer your constructive criticism if anything at all. We're still very early into this program, and there's going to be some flaws to iron out until everything runs smoothly.
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#9
Don't worry. I'm well aware of all of this. I did just so happen to say most avenues. More implying that the scope is indeed limited to only what I can see. No reason to go around that.

Is it all second-hand information? Of course. My point was primarily to get across not much more than "I have heard mostly negative aspects and this translates the same often into the IC related aspects when I, me, myself, see it mentioned."

My bias is more or less "Man, off to a rough start. That sucks. I'll consider hopping in when I feel it's better." alongside "A lotta people are talking some shit. While optimism is good, better at least indicate as such." Or for better words.

"Quite a few people??? Man, how the fuck am I missing all the praise barring not being in the SL2 Discord? No way people are so overly negative, right guys?" Granted, y'know. I don't care much to undermine them was more my point. Hell, if it was a personal attack, i'd just say so. I'm just saying that most public events that i've been aware of, i've been able to see an even blend of positvity and negativity alike or more memorable happenings to it. But neither side is overly overwhelming.

Yet it seems almost depressingly negative. I'd love for the events to get better, sure. I know things take time. Go crazy in that regard. Likewise. To add onto this. 

I've an initial lack of faith in most everything until proven otherwise. After all, I hardly knew Appo or most of the others prior to them becoming...y'know. Eventmins. My main reason for speaking is nothing more than "abnormal levels of negativity is worrying" at the core. Likewise, despite all i've said, all the things I could've quoted, so on, so on. 

It's still rather easy to just go about fixing all the issues, getting some more structure, all that jazz and proving me wrong. Yeah? For all I know overall, even if we remove all the negative aspects i've been hearing about, it could be that Appo just ain't going for something I seek personally from events. After all.





Quote:WaifuApple Wrote: 
Quote:Quite a few people have enjoyed these events when the tweaks were finally gotten right and I don't intend to change things too much for these particular events. Expanding on areas that are lacking, and cutting down on things that went overdone, sure... but not completely changing it to please an opinion I've only seen so far from one person.




Not every event will be like this, though. Others on the team will be planning more narrative events, and I'll be planning some too... but the swarm is as simple as I'm going to make things myself. Just a group of challenging mobs that give people a reason to pay attention to a certain area for a little while, and give people something to talk about. That's all they are, even if things weren't perfect first time.
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Them saying they don't intend to change things is fine, just might not be my personal taste. Don't know until I see how much is 'not intending to change too much' as well as the fact that 'for these particular events' implies the future may hold something different in store. So y'know. They did even state they'll be doing narrative events. So i'll go wait for those. (Y'know, past the two months.)

Them also literally mentioning they've only seen an opinion (presumably) of Kunai's type and yet i'm hearing similar from tons of people in-game and similar shenanigans from within the proclaimed event-feedback channel. (Which i'd imagine you'd know is me being incapable of sourcing that for the reason of once again, not being in the discord) It's a bit worrisome is all

Nothing more, nothing less. Just didn't add up. So my brain thought: "Me go inform, me go byebye." I just spoke what I had to, minimal plans of being constructive or even to have an argument since it was more for the sake of informing primarily. Not much more. 

Hell, I even asked a few people (insistently at times) how they felt about it. Whether naming them would be in good taste or not is beyond me. Since i'd hope they'd just go to Appo themselves or something if they really cared that much. Why didn't I? Probably since I don't know their Discord, nor care that much my own self. 

Bystander and no participation thus far and all that, y'know?

tl;dr

I don't know shit about forum etiquette, had minimal intentions to be too constructive and primarily just wanted to indicate that "Okay that's cool, but my thoughts so far is that this ain't looking good solely because a lotta people aren't hopeful/feeling too good after the first two displays but not everyone but an abnormal amount from what i've seen and that's more than enough for me to not want to get invested for now and after seeing how little people cared, if at all, once it was over and done with makes me think it's not worth the time for IC investment.

Thus, please prove me wrong.

Easy enough. There's not much more to say.

(07-27-2020, 12:47 AM)MakeshiftWalrus Wrote: Before this develops into an argument, please be considerate, and offer your constructive criticism if anything at all. We're still very early into this program, and there's going to be some flaws to iron out until everything runs smoothly.

Oh my. I was typing as you said that. But yes. Time yields all the answers and all that. So feel free to delete my post if it's much of an issue. I already said what I gotta say.
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#10
Well, first time I wrote this I managed to accidentally post it far from complete... so whoops on that part, slip of the finger, writing on mobile. Deleted that now but must be awkward if anyone else caught it in that time.

Don't want to make it seem like I'm ignoring concerns, so I'll reply here saying that while there was a good chunk of negative feedback, it was that. Feedback - ways to make it better, and not a straight up sign that this type of event wasn't going to sail. Some people wanted events with more narrative, which is why I have been saying so often that those will come - and that people need patience on that.

Feedback I got was a lot of the time centered on the difficulty of the mobs, and how they, of course, needed to be balanced better, and I will not dispute that they did. Something I'll have to do for the next event like this, that much is sure. Another thing was the lack of RP in the event, and just the mobs. Suggestions were taken on board for that and I'm going to see if I can get some field medic RP integrated into swarms, and with all going well with mobs I'll be free up to make more narrates instead of having to fix them.

The first event, I admit, was very lackluster as an event. It was a first event so I obviously didn't want to get too ambitious, and it was essentially an opportunity for me to make sure I'd learned the tools right and ensure I could, well... run an event relatively smoothly. In that aspect, it succeeded, and it also gave players something to do.

Admittedly, thanks to the scope of the events the amount of talking point for them isn't grand for most, but people have reacted, and heck even the Chataran event had a brief mention of the swarm within. The timing of both events really made for some great flow, tbh.

If there was any more said elsewhere, I must make one thing clear: i cannot act on feedback I don't see. I'm not superhuman and you can't expect me to know what you think if it's posted off in some faraway server I don't exist in. So in that vein, it's certainly not constructive for anyone.

If you want to be proven wrong on your thoughts and opinions, that's fine - but I honestly did not find it at all constructive for someone who came to neither of the events to reiterate things I've already heard in a way that feels like it was just meant to be anything but helpful, considering any points made have been said in more helpful ways. If you want to see things get better, then help me do so with feedback I can take on board.

...but I'm afraid I can't really humor concerns of "Well I've heard it was pretty bad", because what you've heard may not always translate well, and because that's not telling me anything that helps me.

That's all I can say. Hope something strikes your fancy in future and makes you less negative about things, but it's okay if it doesn't.
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