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Geist and Clumsy.
#1
This thread's about a very specific interaction.

Geist is a movement skill.  It's core to Boxer gameplay, since it lets you move, something boxer can't normally do.  It also is your single biggest defensive option as a boxer.

Clumsy prevents people from using geist.  I've seen the death in a punch punch man's eyes when they realize they've lost the ability to even take a step without losing their Schwartz.

Oh, poor boxer.  I weep for your soul.

I beg for this interaction to be improved, somehow.  Either by giving a skill that cleanses clumsy to MA/Boxer that doesn't nuke schwartz, by making geist immune to clumsy, or by making basic movement a schwartz-allowed action.
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  • Mr.SmileGod
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#2
Unless you're across the map (which you shouldn't be, as a Boxer) or being kited, using basic movement and then a boxer skill often results in a net loss of one (1) or none (0) schwarz sturm, and you're still dealing damage. Most boxer skills grant one (1) schwarz, with the exception of regenschauer which grants two (2). Walking up and using regenschauer means you lose a total of 0 schwarz, and using any other sensible boxer skill means you lose only one. You don't really lose much.

If you ARE being kited or across the map, you also have the option of doing nothing if you're truly that desperate to maintain big damage octonary number. Keep in mind using Orkam Drehen (which has big, BIG range, likely bigger than your movement) uses two sturm too, but chances are you'll deal damage using it and be in range for a follow up regardless.

In the off chance you have zero schwarz sturm and you're inflicted with clumsy, you have nothing to lose anyway! You can't orkam but walking isn't going to negatively impact you. It's not a good situation, and I have to wonder how anyone would get in it.

So in summary, I don't think this is really a big deal, and clumsy doesn't really affect boxer much more than being one tile diagonally away does. Being unable to geist at all does suck, but it isn't like it completely ruins you. No good boxer relies on geists.
JamOfBoy#8297
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  • Miller
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#3
(08-31-2020, 07:42 PM)JamOfBoy Wrote: Unless you're across the map (which you shouldn't be, as a Boxer) or being kited, using basic movement and then a boxer skill often results in a net loss of one (1) or none (0) schwarz sturm, and you're still dealing damage. Most boxer skills grant one (1) schwarz, with the exception of regenschauer which grants two (2). Walking up and using regenschauer means you lose a total of 0 schwarz, and using any other sensible boxer skill means you lose only one. You don't really lose much.

If you ARE being kited or across the map, you also have the option of doing nothing if you're truly that desperate to maintain big damage octonary number. Keep in mind using Orkam Drehen (which has big, BIG range, likely bigger than your movement) uses two sturm too, but chances are you'll deal damage using it and be in range for a follow up regardless.

In the off chance you have zero schwarz sturm and you're inflicted with clumsy, you have nothing to lose anyway! You can't orkam but walking isn't going to negatively impact you. It's not a good situation, and I have to wonder how anyone would get in it.

So in summary, I don't think this is really a big deal, and clumsy doesn't really affect boxer much more than being one tile diagonally away does. Being unable to geist at all does suck, but it isn't like it completely ruins you. No good boxer relies on geists.

This. Patience is a virtue. Only time this would remotely really get out of hand is a Tactician/MG with Ryesers. Even then, No good boxer relies on Geists. One could argue it's fundamental to their gameplay but that doesn't stand to be the case most of the time. It helps a fuckton though.

At that point, it turns into the shitfest known as "they didn't build crit evade, get fucked" , the same as Gunners go perish to Blade Barrier.

No go, no bueno, el por favor. I think I said something there.
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#4
Couple of things about the responses I've seen:

A) I'm fairly sure that geists aren't the only thing affected by clumsy in this scenario. The other one would be Korken, another big skill for boxer mobility.
B) A net loss of 1 in a skill that caps at 8 is still pretty huge, especially when it can take as many as 4 turns to build to 8. Being limited to literally ONLY regen to build your class's main mechanic is pretty wack.
C) Clumsy is pretty strong when paired with movement debilitating skills, such as BK's new Forced Move, Celsius shell, Celsius seeds for Dynamics, Cripple Leg, Earthbound Fog, Immobilize, the list goes on. In most cases, a boxer would not even be able to fight back if both were in play.
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  • Miller
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#5
(09-01-2020, 05:36 AM)Mr.SmileGod Wrote: A) I'm fairly sure that geists aren't the only thing affected by clumsy in this scenario. The other one would be Korken, another big skill for boxer mobility.

Even if Korkenzieher is affected, not much changes. If it isn't, you can hit them! ...if you have high enough Schwarz, and they're in a directly line from you. I don't see that last criteria happening often, even without clumsy coming into play.

Quote:B) A net loss of 1 in a skill that caps at 8 is still pretty huge, especially when it can take as many as 4 turns to build to 8. Being limited to literally ONLY regen to build your class's main mechanic is pretty wack.

One Schwarz Sturm is equal to a 5% damage modifier. At eight Schwarz, you're doing (5*8)% more damage. At seven, you're doing (5*7)% more damage. It's not that much, especially when you consider this is per round you have a specific negative debuff actively hindering you - if this was just how things were normally, there'd be issue, but I don't think people shouldn't be punished for having a negative status effect.

Quote:C) Clumsy is pretty strong when paired with movement debilitating skills, such as BK's new Forced Move, Celsius shell, Celsius seeds for Dynamics, Cripple Leg, Earthbound Fog, Immobilize, the list goes on. In most cases, a boxer would not even be able to fight back if both were in play.

Should they be able to? That sounds like a bad matchup for boxers, someone kitted with clumsy and a movement killer, but if they manage to pull it off, I think that's perfectly fair on them for working around your class' limitations and exploiting it's weaknesses.

I only know two methods of inflicting clumsy (there's probably more) - ryesers and a racial trait for Wyverntouched. In both instances, these moves are Geist-able themselves. You can eins for basic attacks, zwei if they're going to use cripple arm or cripple leg to hit you. Zwei works on WT bites. Clumsy isn't exactly guaranteed to hit a Boxer - it isn't even guaranteed to hit anyone. I don't see why we should make it irrelevant for when it DOES.
JamOfBoy#8297
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#6
A) That last criteria happens all the time, though. There's a reason why corners screw boxers over so much-- because their main movement is geist into korken. They're almost always using korken, unless a specific scenario necessitates the use of orkam, or they're in 1 range at the start of their turn. It's kinda their bread and butter movement skill.

B) At first, sure. That one point isn't a huge deal if they're already up to that point. What if they can't reach that point, though? Because they got clumsy early on, and effectively CAN'T build their stacks? Then, as you stated above, korken is worthless, for one, even when clumsy is off. Their damage is dramatically lowered, which is 90% of what boxers do: raw damage.

C) Should they be able to? Why SHOULD a single status pairing make someone completely unable to fight back against you? That's the definition of overpowered-- if the person with a ryeser outranges you, you're dead. There's no helping you. That's not so much a counter, as it is just plain unfair. Sure, you can build for crit evade-- but crit evade can be difficult to build for, and you get 3 tries for it with a ryeser ANYWAY because it's a multishot gun. Same for hit chance-- even with a 40% hit chance, you're bound to hit at least one in a single volley.

At the very least, even if geist doesn't get a special exemption, I feel like clumsy should get an immunity period. It's far too easy for a ryeser user to just shut you down and hold you there until you die. Dodging won't help, because hexer or any class with Frozen can just erase your evade. And as far as geisting a ryeser? Sure, that may work-- but the first time they land it will also be the last time you geist, unless they make a mistake. You can't geist while clumsy, after all.
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#7
Intended (Its a movement skill, which is what Clumsy prevents. Why would this movement skill be special?) and necessary as far as I'm concerned. Geist has the single best action economy in the game as is, having an answer to it is not an issue. You already have to play so hard around it or lose not just 3m from your action cancel, but also the enemy boxer gains 3m.

Even when it doesn't proc it forces people to use skills that wont proc it. Does not need buffed at all.

T. Someone whose played boxer longer than most people.
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#8
(09-01-2020, 06:21 PM)EenKogNeeto Wrote: Intended (Its a movement skill, which is what Clumsy prevents. Why would this movement skill be special?)

This is balance-fu, not a bug report.
I'd argue the inhibition of boxer's only movement that doesn't subtract Schwartz is significant. It puts the boxer at a standstill. Move is still an option, but real talk? Most builds- Especially boxer, will always prefer to not use move, given all the reasons not to.
That said, I'd like to remind that 'making geist immune' isn't the only option.
Why not just make Movement not reduce Schwartz? Can any boxers chime in on why that would or would not be an issue?
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#9
(09-01-2020, 07:27 PM)Maksimum_Fire Wrote:
(09-01-2020, 06:21 PM)EenKogNeeto Wrote: Intended (Its a movement skill, which is what Clumsy prevents. Why would this movement skill be special?)

This is balance-fu, not a bug report.
I'd argue the inhibition of boxer's only movement that doesn't subtract Schwartz is significant. It puts the boxer at a standstill. Move is still an option, but real talk? Most builds- Especially boxer, will always prefer to not use move, given all the reasons not to.
That said, I'd like to remind that 'making geist immune' isn't the only option.
Why not just make Movement not reduce Schwartz? Can any boxers chime in on why that would or would not be an issue?

Why don't you quote the rest of the post instead of singling out one comment and continue abusing the reputation system? Een is correct in that Boxer's Geist schritt doesn't need any necessary buffs.

I'd argue Boxer needs some way to deal with people kiting them in super close range so making movement not reduce your sturm level is the optimal play more than likely. Which to my knowledge they haven't necessarily even disagreed with yet, they only merely stated that geist schritt doesn't need buffs at the current moment.

Referring to an earlier comment here, two status effects (one of them having multiple iterations that CANNOT be cleansed by cleanse body) completely hard counter boxer and that is overpowered versus them, as you are forcing them to be unable to chase down opponents when they are already super close ranged to begin with. And thats not okay currently.

If you want my opinion:
-Movement should not reduce sturm levels just like basic attacking doesn't
-Cleanse body should remove immobilize sub-statuses like frozen and grapple at rank 4, even if it doesn't make the most sense they still are immobilizes.

Mobility is super important to martial artists and is basically their core identity, they should have the tools to re-establish themselves, and its not like its overpowered to spend 3m to cure a status that usually cost 3m to apply anyways, cleansing doesn't even apply immunities to my knowledge either.
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#10
I'm not against a cleanse-body buff. I still stand by the fact that Clumsy needs an immunity period, or the most abusable case (ryeser) needs something done to make it less of a point-and-click shut-down. This isn't me advocating to make it useless, but I've seen what it can do with someone that build for it-- you get held there and pelted to death by a volley of shots, with few options for recourse.

I am concerned that being forced to cleanse body is yet another drain to your sturm as a boxer, which, honestly? I've always wondered why base-class MA skills remove sturm. I feel like they should be neutral to a boxer's sturm count, not adding or reducing it-- that alone would give boxers so many more options, especially when you factor in cases like crane hop and heaven kick. It'd solve the corner kiting thing entirely.
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