Poll: Should turn order be reverted?
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Yes
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No
57.69%
15 57.69%
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Turn Order- A checkup
#1
hey, incidentally-  We're a little more than a year past turn order changes, as I recall.  What's everyone think?  Was new turn order an improvement?  Or not so much?

I'm personally firmly of the opinion that it didn't really add anything that fun and still has devastating consequences and bugs associated with it, so I'd like to see it go away sooner rather than later.

As an example of some of those consequences and bugs-

>Quickdraw is still useless in too many situations.  It's often referred to as being a 'niche' problem, but I think that really undersells it.  QD becomes the least damaging gun in the game against specific targets in teamfights;  Turn-order shifting tactics like stuns can make this a consistent and deliberate tactic.  Events also make Quickdraw unusable in the preferred format of event staff, since single event 'bosses' have been in fashion since the institution of event staff.

>Stunning and self-stunning leads to silly turn order functions, including double turning when there's no good reason that you should be doing so.  It's janky and unpleasant to deal with unless you study tactics under the method of Stone Dragon>Air Pressure religiously

I'd like to see turn order reverted to what it was before the major change.  For new players unaware-  Turn order used to be entirely determined by initiative.  There was no system in place to make players move alternatingly.

Occasionally, this lead to teams being able to coordinate effectively due to sharing an initiative slot, but I don't think that was a big deal, since...  The other team would have their own initiative chunk too, in that case.  Let me know what you all think, and if you have some personal stories of the problems that new turn order has brought, feel free to share them.
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#2
I do not agree with the idea that the old initiative system was fair on the basis of having your own initiative chunk after a team full of people faster, because by the time your turn comes if you're slower, you may just be dead, and at that point because of the onslaught you were just ran through, that doesn't matter at all. It WAS a bit of a big deal.

Overall, this is a post that seems more leaned towards the issue of quickdraw, and I don't think one weapon should decide the fate of an entire system that isn't even that bad. Since changes towards stuff like Youkai, it's felt a lot better.

I don't want to see the old system come back, and would prefer any glaring issues with the new system that still exist be worked out in a fair way. As for quickdraw, that might just need a change itself.
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#3
The change definitely made CEL more of a only-dump or only-60+ stat.

There's a lot of others reasons for high damage to party members at start, and while it's certainly a lot better now that initiative has changed, there's other solutions we could try to force onto it as a fix- a horrible, duct-tape-strewn mess made of sorrows.

If I alone was given a choice, I'd change it back to how it was.
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#4
@Appo;

Quickdraw is a system of a bigger problem; Self-stun and stun mechanics granting 'extra' turns, particularly in one-on-one situations isn't fun. Rushdown has also been beaten out of common play in many more ways, like the deployment system, and successive buffs to strategies that involve buffing up or otherwise taking great distance. I'd appreciate it if you considered the whole problem, but also am grateful you took the time to come and give your two cents.

In general from a 'feel' factor, regardless of quickdraw, explosion, bombs, field effects, and many other mechanics that suffered from turn order changes- It still, to me, just doesn't feel as pleasant as a simpler "Initiative determines your turn order". I don't think Skip should grant 'extra' turns either, personally, if you wanted to take half of your actions for a turn, skip, and then act again after your opponent either acted or counter skipped. I feel that was a more fulfilling system than what we have now.

Thanks again for your feedback.
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#5
(07-07-2021, 06:46 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: Since changes towards stuff like Youkai, it's felt a lot better.

Amusingly, this is the main reason I DISLIKE the new turn order system. I was actually pretty neutral on it before this 'fix'. If I could somehow go after my Youkai still even as a toggle or something I'd be completely okay with it. It was no secret that my character used a very gimmicky playstyle, but having the Ice Birb youkai move before me to create ice tiles and then expanding ice/create ice points piggybacking off of that was basically my entire shtick. While Dev did eventually make it so cinders/ice last 2 rounds instead of one, the core issue of me not being able to create ice at all on the first turn since I go before the bird and every turn after would have 12 cells less to work with from the youkai going after basically destroyed what I was trying to do. (I used their turn to double move before my actions. But with so much time between the 0 init bird and then me on the next round nothing is beside the ice by the time I go.) I don't change builds though and stick with what I pick so I just don't do much mechanical stuff anymore.
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#6
Re: Youkai, I tend to be with Fuepepe here. I like strategies allowing you to move after youkai, or before, depending on what your particular build was and what you were looking to do. Youkai moving first was a great boon in burning Cobra Charges, for example, too- And I miss that counterplay, as a cobra player.

Sawrock also addresses a good point. Cel's use in providing initiative is kinda meaningless in the world of current turn order. Initiative having real meaning would give some boons to Celerity as a stat that isn't just 'max this so you can manage to evade sometimes'.
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#7
Sorry, but I'm with Appo on this one. While there are problems with the current system, definitely, the ability for a full team to move before you do very quickly turns any fight into "which side can deal 800+ damage before the opponent can react".

Keep in mind that before the current system, "initiative races" were commonplace - people kept adding more and more Celerity even if the scaling has made it pointless to do so normally, all because their entire strategy revolved around them and potentially their team moving first. As such, a team moves first, and the other team very likely loses due to even the faster people needing to take 2-3 attacks at minimum before they move, which usually leaves them at critical health by the time the round ends, or potentially even just dead if your opponents had a low momentum movement option plus an AoE or two. Then, reasonably, the faster ones of the team that lost think that their Celerity is lacking, and add more Celerity to outspeed the other team themselves, and the cycle continues.
It was bad enough that people legitimately hardcapped Celerity and added a Quickdraw, all in the name of moving before anyone else.

In case you think I'm exaggerating... I'm really not. There were countless complaints of speed being the deciding factor a lot of the time, and they have been the primary reason for the current system. If anything, we should likely be asking for some problematic interactions to be fixed more than anything.
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#8
Agreed on Sol's point. Stuff like double turning, personally, isn't nearly as comparable to the jank things that the old system allowed for, and it's less of an issue to be attacked twice in a row than 4 times in a row.

Besides, I do remember double turns still existing in a capacity with the old system, too, because I'd see them often in invocations being prepared to mitigate the ability of a character to avoid them. That's not a new issue whatsoever, honestly.

Edit: And yes, basically all it took was still skip.
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#9
@luna Personally, I think that wasn't such a bad situation;  And with deployment mode, rushdown became much more difficult.  Teams could spread out or back up as much as they wanted, making a lot of round start AoEs no longer viable.

There were plenty of downsides for going that much Cel, too.  We could compare it to Luminary Element, except Celerity is pretty much solely a defensive and wind magic stat.  I don't think it's a great bogeyman of damage for celerity to get stacked way high.

At the time, it was a balance between 'rushdown' and 'teamplay', since if you went too far out there you'd just do your damage and then get nuked by the whole enemy team.  One turn of damage doesn't compensate for the loss of an entire body.

Turtling has never been fun to play as, in my experience, and between deployment phase, new turn order, and the style of the game-  Particularly the more optimized play becomes, the more it devolves into deathballing in a corner and spamming mapwides.  This is kinda because rushdown doesn't exist to keep that in check.

Rushdown was a fun meta because it kept fights from dragging on way too long, and I'd like to see it return.  It'll never be as dramatic as it was at one point, because of deployment phase-  But at least it having a place in the game would be pleasant. 

With old turn order?  You could play aggressively and act with your team, which was fun.  Now?  To act with your team, it's a must to play defensively.

Thanks for your feedback, nonetheless.  I think your argument is actually well constructed;  Since I do understand how burst was pretty standout in the old meta.  Ideally, I'd like to see a balance between turtling and rushdown, and I think between deployment and the gradual nerfing of many AoE options, fast options, mobility, and other functions of that era, we would be in that spot if the turn order change was reverted.

@Appo in that case, it was often skip and the lack of a counter skip, which is a bit different since it requires a mechanical interaction.  I think it's more fair than stun-fu.
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#10
it would probably be easier to fix the way the current system works with stuns so that they are once again a punishing detriment rather than free DR and a turn order flip, than to go back to the old ways.
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