Poll: Should turn order be reverted?
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Yes
42.31%
11 42.31%
No
57.69%
15 57.69%
Total 26 vote(s) 100%
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Turn Order- A checkup
#11
(07-07-2021, 07:40 AM)Lolzytripd Wrote: it would probably be easier to fix the way the current system works with stuns so that they are once again a punishing detriment rather than free DR and a turn order flip, than to go back to the old ways.
If this happens?  Great.  But it kinda needs to happen.  It's been a year since turn order, and I feel like we're still going through the growing pains with it.

I'm here wondering just why that is.

Thanks for your contribution.
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#12
People eventually just stopped asking for changes, really. That's why I feel there are still growing pains - after the youkai changes and stuff, people stopped championing fixes, and just got on with it.

Reviving the desire to see things fixed and polished would inevitably for the greater good, over trying to get something that likely took hard work to implement completely reverted. That code might not exist anymore, even.
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#13
(07-07-2021, 07:49 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: People eventually just stopped asking for changes, really. That's why I feel there are still growing pains - after the youkai changes and stuff, people stopped championing fixes, and just got on with it.

Reviving the desire to see things fixed and polished would inevitably for the greater good, over trying to get something that likely took hard work to implement completely reverted. That code might not exist anymore, even.
When I do interact with sl2's mechanics, I do so at events first and foremost, and in the occasional serious fight after that.  Spars in large gathering places tend to generate just as much salt for silly reasons as they used to, in my experience, and that's just as disappointing as always;  So sure, if y'all are keen on that, go for it.

If it's easier to just revert the system, though?  I'm all for it, since in my view what was gained(a more gradual development to teamfights) does not outweigh what was lost(the potential for greater aggressive coordination).
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#14
(07-07-2021, 07:55 AM)Maksimum_Fire Wrote:
(07-07-2021, 07:49 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: People eventually just stopped asking for changes, really. That's why I feel there are still growing pains - after the youkai changes and stuff, people stopped championing fixes, and just got on with it.

Reviving the desire to see things fixed and polished would inevitably for the greater good, over trying to get something that likely took hard work to implement completely reverted. That code might not exist anymore, even.
When I do interact with sl2's mechanics, I do so at events first and foremost, and in the occasional serious fight after that.  Spars in large gathering places tend to generate just as much salt for silly reasons as they used to, in my experience, and that's just as disappointing as always;  So sure, if y'all are keen on that, go for it.

If it's easier to just revert the system, though?  I'm all for it, since in my view what was gained(a more gradual development to teamfights) does not outweigh what was lost(the potential for greater aggressive coordination).
I feel like you're just assuming its easier to revert still. historically whenever something has reverted its taken time as dev guts the old system entirely and as the updates roll in older versions get deleted to save space.
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#15
If we are comparing the current iteration of turn order to what it was before, I prefer what it was previously.

In my personal experience, the problems that the new system aimed to address very rarely happened.  Initiative 'races' were always a matter of going first (even in one versus one capacities), and they would still exist with this system if the builds associated with them were powerful in the meta.  Additionally, in the 5+ years I have been playing, I have not seen a single meta squad that stacked high initiative to rush somebody down before they received a turn.  That is not to say it did not happen at all, but suggests to me that it was not a common problem that necessitated sweeping change.

That said, I would be perfectly content with the newer round robin implementation if edge cases and pain points associated with it were addressed.  For example...
  • The defeat of an enemy causes one enemy to receive two turns before your slowest teammate receives theirs, and vice versa.  
  • Getting stunned can promote the now unstunned creature in turn order, bypassing the detrimental status effect entirely.
  • Skip continues to allow characters to take two turns before certain enemies take theirs.
For that reason, I am still (though it was denied during the new system's inception) a proponent for using the current system to determine turn order, then locking those positions in place so that death, revival, etc, do not retroactively modify who goes when.  Skip, like always, remains a pain point.
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#16
(07-07-2021, 08:59 PM)Kameron8 Wrote: If we are comparing the current iteration of turn order to what it was before, I prefer what it was previously.

In my personal experience, the problems that the new system aimed to address very rarely happened.  Initiative 'races' were always a matter of going first (even in one versus one capacities), and they would still exist with this system if the builds associated with them were powerful in the meta.  Additionally, in the 5+ years I have been playing, I have not seen a single meta squad that stacked high initiative to rush somebody down before they received a turn.  That is not to say it did not happen at all, but suggests to me that it was not a common problem that necessitated sweeping change.

That said, I would be perfectly content with the newer round robin implementation if edge cases and pain points associated with it were addressed.  For example...
  • The defeat of an enemy causes one enemy to receive two turns before your slowest teammate receives theirs, and vice versa.  
  • Getting stunned can promote the now unstunned creature in turn order, bypassing the detrimental status effect entirely.
  • Skip continues to allow characters to take two turns before certain enemies take theirs.
For that reason, I am still (though it was denied during the new system's inception) a proponent for using the current system to determine turn order, then locking those positions in place so that death, revival, etc, do not retroactively modify who goes when.  Skip, like always, remains a pain point.

Pretty much everything here is what I agree with, while the fringe super abuse cases very rarely or ever happened, I believe that the double duelist dunk was still a bit of an issue, or comboing someone into a VA's range was a very unfair strategy at times. With the new system at least one person can respond to said double whammy in hopefully a meaningful way.

Still, I believe that the sole gripes I have with the system as it current stands are precisely just this, turn order should remain the same upon losing teammates, as the 'comeback' issue, while cool in some respects, is definitely unfair to a lot of players.

Also Dullahans mess with the turn order a bunch with stun effects, this leads to self-stun + Mayelia being a little bit more powerful than before.
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#17
My thoughts blare exactly the same as Kameron8, amd Autumn's post above. The turn order should never under any circumstance switch because one team is doing well. It's at best frustrating to suddenly be doubled on because an opponent died you might not even have been close to, or touched, and at worst it can result in you going down with them from being doubled on yourself.

It doesn't add anything fun to the fight, just an extra layer of jank you have to properly understand if you want to compete in serious battles.

I should point out that I too prefer the old system to the current one.
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#18
Nah. It's better this way. Fuck ever having to be rushed down by monsters as a tank ever again, lmao.

What we need to address is the little cheeses that tend to happen which are -not- fair in the context (such as how Summoners tend to die, and suddenly all of their Youkai are on the top of the speed list), not completely revert this back to monke.
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#19
Current turn order more mechanical and expressive, previous order less mechanical and flowed into RP easier, barring four consecutive turn spam. I don't like the current litany of conditions where you are two turned, but would side on it being a better system overall for PvP at the expense of it being difficult to write around. With adjustments, it could be a best of both worlds, even if it currently isn't.
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#20
Yep, it does need bapping on the nonsensical cheese.
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