[Autumn]

This item has become really effective since it applies to practically everything now, I think the effectiveness needs to be toned down in some way.

The damage it adds up over time in a fight is much too consistent, and doesn't exactly offer engaging gameplay to the opponent against it, therefore I'd like to propose that fang faced shield do as the tin says and probably threaten melee attackers more than ranged attackers, and allow melee attackers chances to avoid its damage, cutting its performance by a variable amount depending on matchup. As right now it is simply too consistent to not be the best shield slot, even considering elemental shields.

Here is my current suggestion:
-Fang Faced Shield can now only activate in melee range.
-Bash damage from Fang Faced Shield now increased to UL * 2 (24)
-Fang Faced Shield's bash damage ignores Protection and Armor

The former would give counterplay to Fang Faced Shield other than having a weapon type designed to deal with it, and the latter would offset the nerf to its performance by providing it potential damage that was only just a very very slight bonus before.

[Entropy]

As one of the prime fang face abusers at the moment, I honestly agree that the shield is kind of ridiculous at the moment. I can win some fights by literally just guarding and letting the enemy kill themselves on my shield.

What are you gonna do, not hit me?

These changes seem fair, and I love the idea of it becoming a 'bash shield'.

[Pyro]

One of the significant problems is that outside of niche situations, there's no reason to use a different shield. Resistances are great, sure. But why don't I just put on fangface mirrorshield?

[Snake]

-Fang Faced Shield can now only activate in melee range.
>> Much needed, however I'd make its effective proc range be 2 range (diamond), so it activates on diagonals, which are still "melee" in a sense.

-Bash damage from Fang Faced Shield now increased to UL * 2 (24)
>> I'd make that a Lingering Damage (Pierce) infliction + empowerment instead that lasts 2 rounds and caps at LV50.

-Fang Faced Shield's bash damage ignores Protection and Armor
>> Yeah, it's a small and conditional number anyway, it should go through armor or else this nerf would be too harsh in any scenario.

[Imotepchief]

Personally, I don't think a nerf is needed to fang-faced at all. It currently just disencourages glass cannon pvp builds, that people seem to be a fan of. Even then, the damage reflected isn't that great, mainly being an issue to pistol users, who will fire a lot of low damage shots, getting hit multiple times a turn.

Going against single, large hit builds, you're taking what?.. 24 damage for whatever hit you're landing?.. It's nothing, even if you full momentum guard, if the other person takes advantage of that, they can still overcome it. Not to mention the numerous guard break skills, which would reduce the reflected damage down to 12 and make them take more damage due to their guarding.

The main issue is the fact that shields are generally pretty meh. You have potentially two good shields, with another being good in niche situations, if you're considering the items themselves alongside enchant shield skills and BK things, requiring very specific builds that need to somewhat focus on the shields themselves, sacrificing actual damage.

It seems silly to simply nerf when there are actual counters to it that people seem to gloss over.

[Autumn]

Personally, I don't think a nerf is needed to fang-faced at all. It currently just disencourages glass cannon pvp builds, that people seem to be a fan of. Even then, the damage reflected isn't that great, mainly being an issue to pistol users, who will fire a lot of low damage shots, getting hit multiple times a turn.

This isn't a big issue to multi-shot guns anymore, and for the most part, any multi-hitting skills should behave the same way, where Fang Faced Shield's effect is only going to apply once to that attack, I am unsure how it discourages glass cannon pvp builds exactly as it effects almost everyone the same, only having health as a buffer due to the way it interacts with DEF and Armor. Last I checked, most builds, regardless of defensive line ups, have anywhere in the ballpark of 800-1000 HP, thats just the standard among both build types.

Going against single, large hit builds, you're taking what?.. 24 damage for whatever hit you're landing?.. It's nothing, even if you full momentum guard, if the other person takes advantage of that, they can still overcome it. Not to mention the numerous guard break skills, which would reduce the reflected damage down to 12 and make them take more damage due to their guarding.

Yes you're taking about 24 damage for whatever hit, except you can't avoid that damage really, you just eat it whenever you inflict an attack on your opponent, and it adds up extremely fast and contributes a lot of damage to the fight overall. Its not that the damage is high otherwise I would have proposed changing its numbers, the damage is rather reasonable in the previous versions of SL2 because it did not apply to every attack so consistently.

But now that Fang Faced Shield IS applying to every attack, whether you're basic attacking or not, it removed one of the core weaknesses of the item (Which helped it stay in line) which was that it wasn't always going to apply, this was also to the benefit of a further implemented item, the Skull Shield dropped from Lorywell monsters. As it would be more consistent in what it applied to but only when parry skills were triggered.

 On average if you're using a shield, you're going to be aiming to take very little damage, or at least mitigate a lot of it, if you're taking around like 7-8 hits a fight, your fang faced shield is contributing over 200 damage most likely, which is on top of whatever else you're throwing at your opponent, creating a sizeable momentum offset.

Also as for addressing the 3 guard breaking skills, there are two that are worthwhile: Libegrande and Reaper Scythe, as they will inflict their damage after guard break is inflicted, while the last guard breaking ability, Light Tomahawk does not share this feature, and is even much harder to apply than the aforementioned abilities.

The main issue is the fact that shields are generally pretty meh. You have potentially two good shields, with another being good in niche situations, if you're considering the items themselves alongside enchant shield skills and BK things, requiring very specific builds that need to somewhat focus on the shields themselves, sacrificing actual damage.

Shields are pretty dang good these days since the armor changes, I trust that they will fall back into line after which, but stacking on more DR just to have Armor kick in effect even harder than before is what's making them good, and even worthwhile over 2hand in a lot of cases. And is even likely a contender for Idol too, that I am unsure of.

The only consistent avoidance to this issue is ghosthands, which still might only apply to basic attacks, I am unsure.

[Imotepchief]

I did have a long discussion with Hated about this, my statements here were made along the idea that Fang-Faced was simply reflecting physical damage, not magic damage as well. I don't think that FF should reflect magic damage, that's the point of the mirrored enchantment and do feel like that should be remedied, but still believe that the reflected damage shouldn't be something avoidable, if you meet the requirements for the damage to proc.

[Snake]

Fang-Faced Shield doesn't reflect damage. It 'deals UL Pierce Damage (2x if Guarding) to attackers'.

[adamkad1]

I did have a long discussion with Hated about this, my statements here were made along the idea that Fang-Faced was simply retaliate against physical damage, not magic damage as well. I don't think that FF should retaliate against magic damage, that's the point of the mirrored enchantment and do feel like that should be remedied, but still believe that the retaliated damage shouldn't be something avoidable, if you meet the requirements for the damage to proc.

FTFY... Assuming fang faced does count as retaliation

[Autumn]

I did have a long discussion with Hated about this, my statements here were made along the idea that Fang-Faced was simply retaliate against physical damage, not magic damage as well. I don't think that FF should retaliate against magic damage, that's the point of the mirrored enchantment and do feel like that should be remedied, but still believe that the retaliated damage shouldn't be something avoidable, if you meet the requirements for the damage to proc.

FTFY... Assuming fang faced does count as retaliation

It does not, its an on-attacked effect, retaliation damage is countered by mirrored itself. And is the way to check if something is retaliation damage or not consistently.