[Poruku]

I find it incredibly discouraging that an Eventmin fails to understand that.  Who rather than taking the time to put in the effort to ensure what they are providing the community mechanically or narratively is rewarding. They'd rather systems be put in place that would allow them to sidestep that notion of accountability and cooperation entirely for their own fun. 

I appreciate your input bro. I think your method is correct, and it's absolutely something I've done many times in the past. It just takes a lot of effort, and time, and can sometimes be quite unrewarding for how much goes into it. So it's something I do only when I'm really motivated, but it's not something I could do regularly.

However, I don't think it's fair to say that I don't understand that. I play this game to have fun, and I am conscious of what it takes to make a complex event-like antagonist. However that's very different. And yeah, the arm thing I find is a bit of an extreme example. But my goal wasn't to actually take someone's arm, but just to create the threat of something like that. The only reason it came down to it is because the player didn't mind. We repeatedly told them it was an extreme thing to have happen and they would probably not want that, but they went with it anyway. Not something I'm proud of either, I prefer antags that don't cause injuries like that. But it's not like such things can't be impactful either, as long as the person is down for those things. We have danger levels for a reason. And of course, the more an antagonist is present and spends time in the world, the more their antagonistic actions have weight. If you chop one arm, you're just a random guy who chopped an arm. If you chop 100 arms, you're THE arm chopper. Anyway it's a bad example but my point is that it's difficult to build up a standard antag. The moment you do a crime you're done, so you have to spend a long time rping as a normal character somewhere beforehand. It's a lot of time investment for something that might lead to your arrest within 15 minutes of your first big crime. Though, with sufficient planning, those things might not happen. But I've had it happen plenty. And once you're arrested, you're done. All those days or weeks of rp are now over just like that. So at some point, it becomes tiring. I understand that it's easier to play non-violent antags, but there's a limit to what you can do with those, and I like pvp.

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to call it "side stepping accountability". Systems are a good way to minimize disagreements and manage expectations. I don't think it's my responsibility to provide quality entertainment that contributes to people's story as an antag. It's something I strive to do, but it's not my job or responsibility. As an eventmin? Yes, that is my responsibility. But we should not confuse antags and events.

[Stenzio]

The tone set by this conversation has grown to be an upsetting sight. I'll attempt to keep my thoughts surmised, and brief as possible.

Antagonists

       You can play a simple cut-purse, a glorious bastard, a depressed wayward soul, a bandit, a murderer, a psychopath; anything. May it have the depth of the entire ocean or a kiddy-pool; anything. It is the intent held through the creation which colors, and changes the results. When the creation made shall inflict harm, the same should be expected in kind. But more importantly; the need to show whoever fought back's efforts had meaning. To feel useless, or feeble, can provide a good driving force for any character. Engagement is the key. Say I play a psychopathic anarchist; bent upon destroying everything wantonly. The personality constructed is enjoyable to me, deep and complex, but absolutely a deranged being; illogical. When someone attempts to stop this being? I'd pronounce what damages others do to the character, engage in small talk whether in say, or via 'actions' emoted. It is to show the persons efforts are being heeded, understood, and welcomed. So too I understand that character's life span will be short-- it's meant to be. The creation in the example has done heinous acts for selfish reasons, and sown pain, discord, and worse. If someone intends to take their life? I understand fully why. It's happened far too many times. Eventually, the forgiveness of others and leeway provided will dry up upon doing persistent horrible actions. What else is there left for someone to do than need to bring down heavier punishment in due time? What am I to expect that other person to respond with, when my character hasn't changed, and continues to cause problems onto others?

      Intent. It is by intent everything changes. Where one is either playing a creation for others to enjoy bouncing off of, or to simply stir up the pot and make things happen. Both are acceptable, and I'll not dare say otherwise. The way someone chooses to enjoy what they create will not be negotiable in my mind. It's a freeform art that is a treasure. But if the latter is made? People will react by majority unfavorably, and see it as a lost cause to try and engage with beyond 'dealing with the problem'. The same way people look on a reckless, unchanging Protagonist who rushes into the fray and endangers his fellow friends time and again without any progression or alteration as a person. As with anything, there is consequence. To not be self aware unto the fact leaves an author of an antagonist as guilty as the protagonists opposing them for engaging without any effort in kind-- or who treat those efforts in disrespect.

     Effort is a two-way road that isn't always rewarded. In conflicts between the two forces, or even in the day-to-day activities both face whilst roaming. You will meet people who unfortunately do not respect the vision. Or some whom will not 'vibe' with what you're putting forward. Antagonists have to deal with this most frequently due to their nature. Others too are more unforgiving than the rest, and too harsh on even the silly, and light-hearted variety. This I too find unacceptable. It however is the same hurdle which every player faces even when not at odds against one another. Not everyone can jive together, but can with others. If nothing else? We can see to it that all is dealt with fairly. As it should be. Equivalent to the actions done. But I will always believe this:

    
    Engagement. People want an experience that feels like their engagement will matter. That's the responsibility of every player to try and provide. Whether antagonist, protagonist, or anyone else. 

[Sawrock]

man you guys are making my arm chopping simulator complicated

[Stenzio]

man you guys are making my arm chopping simulator complicated

Hard reminder that Sawrock's awesome.

Please chop my arm off bro. I keep hanging it out there hoping we can hang. But you ain't acceptin' my appendage invitation.............................................

[FaeLenx]

And another issue? About communication? What if you can't communicate with say, a nation leader. For instance, you're blocked by said nation leader on discord What are you supposed to do. Go to the GMs? Go to the eventmins? Pray to some possible luck of god that you encounter them IC? You're always at mercy somewhere along the line. And there'll always be someone wanting to protest your feelings on the matter.

If someone doesn't want to roleplay with you then your best bet is to just not roleplay with them. What do either of you have to gain if they seriously dislike your presence to the point where they would rather not hear from you OOCly?

[MegaBlues]

I've been reading the thread, and I think Fae hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, SL2 is a game about collaborative RP, not about inflicting your RP on others. If someone OOCly doesn't want to be antagonized, just leave them alone and find someone who is interested.

Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in PvP deciding anything remotely important to my character, and I would be very displeased if someone tried to force me to.

[FaeLenx]

Thaaat's kinda it. And it goes both ways. It's why the capture rule is important BOTH WAYS.

You don't sign away that level of autonomy just because you play a specific type of character. You might not even be intending for it to be an 'antag.' Just as Sawrock said, he just makes CHARACTERS who do THINGS. If I made a reaper whose sole goal in life was to go around and beat the actual spirits out of anyone abusing them, I don't automatically decide that anyone and everyone is entitled to my time just because they feel they deserve it.

It's why people need to cultivate their space and make sure their preferences are known and the community needs to collectively get rid of this stigma of offing anyone that offends them en masse. Unless we have a DEDICATED DESIGNATION for antags who want their characters to be particularly submissive and executable, they're just a character like anyone else's. If they cut off your friend's arm, that's between them and your friend unless they want to involve you. If they escaped from your nation's jail because you didn't get GM approval for an execution and they didn't want to stay there for a week, then it's the same as when you said 'no I don't want to get attacked in the wilderness' the other day.

[Skimmy2]

I've been reading the thread, and I think Fae hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, SL2 is a game about collaborative RP, not about inflicting your RP on others. If someone OOCly doesn't want to be antagonized, just leave them alone and find someone who is interested.

Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in PvP deciding anything remotely important to my character, and I would be very displeased if someone tried to force me to.

While I agree with you,
wasint one of the whole appeals of Korvara that PvP and Conflict do decide very important things to a lot of characters?
You can't exactly be on an Island where it's inhabitants fight for survival every day against monsters or that the political situation is far more volatile and tense than anywhere in G6 and avoid it.

Like if you have zero interest in getting ganked for being always IC in runescape wilderness island, then don't be on the runescape wilderness IC island.
We've got entire rules and policies written explicitly for Korvara so that people can't ignore the results of PvP/Conflict.

[FaeLenx]

To a lot of people? Sure. Does it need to be everyone? No.

There's enough people who want to go through stuff like that. People who don't want it are a silent minority or just people busy leveling. Put a ping out there like everyone else looking for RP if you're trying to 'rob' people in the woods.

[MegaBlues]

I've been reading the thread, and I think Fae hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, SL2 is a game about collaborative RP, not about inflicting your RP on others. If someone OOCly doesn't want to be antagonized, just leave them alone and find someone who is interested.

Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in PvP deciding anything remotely important to my character, and I would be very displeased if someone tried to force me to.

While I agree with you,
wasint one of the whole appeals of Korvara that PvP and Conflict do decide very important things to a lot of characters?
You can't exactly be on an Island where it's inhabitants fight for survival every day against monsters or that the political situation is far more volatile and tense than anywhere in G6 and avoid it.

Like if you have zero interest in getting ganked for being always IC in runescape wilderness island, then don't be on the runescape wilderness IC island.
We've got entire rules and policies written explicitly for Korvara so that people can't ignore the results of PvP/Conflict.

https://neus-projects.net/wiki/index.php/Conflict_Rules
https://neus-projects.net/wiki/index.php...lict_Rules

The second bullet point says that PvP isn't mandatory for conflict, but then only states that RP is fine if both sides agree to do so. There's no clause for what happens if one person wants to PvP and the second doesn't, though. But it's my opinion that if someone OOCly doesn't want you to do something, you should take your effort elsewhere. Hopefully the team can clear that up, though.