If you back stab an enemy quick draw's extra rounds are null. I'm assuming because there is technically no turn order for you to be considered above them.

Could we allow Daggers to be considered casting tools for Spell thief stolen spells? I was also considering this for Void Assassin dark spells. It would make sense, but if not, it's not the biggest issue in the world. Just something I'd figure would make sense. Like, a skill in spellthief that allows spells specifically stolen for use by spellthief to be used with a dagger casting tool since Final Flare exists. Void Assassin, well, it uses daggers for a majority of the -anything- it does.

Not sure if this should be suggestion or balance. Please move it if need be.

Guns feel like they're in a very weak position right now. Why?

1)Generally low scaling and damage

They don't particularly have any skills that does % SWA, making the low scaling just completely weaken their damage on all accounts. It could be argued that their scaling is low due to range, however mages can have nearly the same range with 120-150% scaling tome combined with un-dodgeable (I know you can evade but it still does damage) spells with choices of AoE. *edit* I nearly forgot. Their damage is actually even considered lower in PvP. Since every bullet is counted seperately, it applies Matador's feel no pain or just flat out DR in general to each shot. That could be a potential 60 damage cut off (or just 0 if each bullet hit less than 20) right off the bat.

I suggest either creating a class that is fully focused on gun skills or just upping their scaling in general. Maybe 20% higher scaling on each gun?

2)Little "special" effects

As far as I can tell, there are only 3 really used guns with effects. Corvis cannon for wind damage, Quick draw for turn order (and rounds), and then Ryeser for lowering momentum which can be countered by just having rubber gear. Excel weapons effects are okay as well, but considering it takes 2 turns to fully charge, but then can be negated by null shell makes it hard to actually use them against any gunner (since most seem to go MG or DH).

I would suggest adding more innate effects for each weapon.
Shotgun: If a shotgun has 3 range, if you are within 1 or 2 range your damage increases, but if you are 4+ range away your hit increases as bullet spreads. Maybe make them into axe type weapons? Not really sure if that would be needed but would be interesting.

Handguns: Perhaps steal Quickdraw's turn order/UL as an overall, without stacking. Or you could turn them into fist weapons for some close range gun combat creating synergy with monks.

Rifles: Negates the longshot penalty and instead gain damage, crit, and hit chance for being further away. You, like bows, gain a close shot penalty. Perhaps also turn them polearm like weapons, as if there were a bayonet on it.

3)Not very much variety in terms of weapons

Again, as far as I can tell very few different guns are used (not that there are much gun users). I believe the list is: Quick draw, Excel sniper, Moonlight mercy, jackhammer, handgun, ryeser, and corvis cannon. I'm no expert so maybe more are used.

Create more guns with their own "role" in combat. I can't think of much, these are just two suggestions.
LMG/HMG: Perhaps with a support fire role, you can "prep" your attack at an enemy. If the enemy plans on moving you can shoot and lower their movement, or if they want to attack an ally they'll have lower crit chance as they're going for a quick strike rather than precise. You can even make it that when an ally goes for an attack they have increased power/crit chance since you'll fire at the enemy near the same time distracting them.

Assault rifles: The mid range damage role. They can gain increasing damage against the same target.

4)No actual class in my opinion

As much people agree, the current gun classes are quite spread out and even makes it impossible to destiny if you want to mix them. My opinion is there just isn't any gun class period. The closest would be MG, but they focus more on using magic shells rather than actual skills/tactics. Demon Hunter seems to be more focused on a sword and gun (since we know what that's from) and only has 2 moves in general for guns. Both of which are just some AoE.

I personally want to be a gun man that doesn't have to somehow get in contact with the black market and get these special shells or whatever demon hunter could really be. A simple gun class with skills, dodges, maybe a shovel smack would be nice.

So, I have encountered problems with the meta nowadays.

1. Strength is underpowered

No, Strength is just a stat that can be dumped in favor of stats that give more, people that focus on Strength, aka 200 SWA DH, do not find Strength underpowered, the problem is mainly the fact that people with Strength, have to invest in things like SKI and LUC, DEF, VIT and RES, to still do their thing, so just make strength as useful.

How? it is actually pretty simple, make BW a meaningful mechanic, that is it.

2. Axes being crit-based

Well, crit-based axes are a ok concept, they are supposed to be a unreliable, Axes are quite great against both armor and unarmored people, because of the cutting edge and center of mass, so it would make sense, Axes have a talent to deal more critical damage and crit chance, but it is not enough comparing to people with 60GUI(They happen lol).

The problem is, there is this thing, called "not enough stats for crit", crits are supposed to be either precise attacks or BRUTE attacks, then why STR gives no crit damage? people has been arguing that STR and crit sucks, so why not give STR crit damage?

Critical chance is found in two stats, so why would it be different in critical damage? and saying that people will stop building GUI for this change has no idea neither, GUI gives flanking, crit damage and skill slots, that is actually more useful than STR for most Kensei or VA builds.

"BUT NOOO I WANT TO BE THE ONLY CRIT BUILD IN THE GAME, I GOT WAYS TO GO AROUND STR, BUT STR BUILDS SHOULD NOT HAVE A WAY TO GO AROUND GUI REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Seriously, both builds will have a buff if STR gets crit damage, the only difference is that STR builds now will have the capacity to get meaningful
basic attacks.

3. We need hammers

Polearm strength based weapons with high power and ignore phys DR (Not all) , there are not enough antitankiness options (Rampaging is one of too many enchants) there are handguns, but not for melees, the options of antitankiness right now are way too low, but the only options that we have, are just extremely OP, like that Arbalest skills, so, there should be more options, soldiers classes have no way to go around DEF stacking and they are the most STR focused classes in the game, they are supposed to be the one most physically powerful, what skill in DH, BK or Tactician go through deffenses? (No gimmicky shit)

All this would be a overall buff to strength, but in my opinion, crit damage does not affect auto hit builds (DH) and hammers without crits does not affect basic attack builds (BK, which is tanky but has preference over basic attacks), the BW being more meaningful is complex, but a thread to make BW more meaningful has been made already.

I know what are you guys gonna say.

1. Presenting the problem

"NOOOO, GHOSTS GETS TOO MANY STATS, THEY HAVE CONDITIONAL STAT BOOSTS BASED ON THEM BEING LOW HP, TOO OP, SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE!!"

Well, here is the problem, everyone else have stat boosts, It is true that Ghosts gets the most, 9 points in 5 stats, sounds great? well, they need to be at 10% HP to get all theses bonus, most of the time, they could be downright killed if they are that low HP, so what will stat bonus count for?

There are many classes that get a lot of stat bonuses, Ghost are no different, they simply sacrifice the most to get the most, meanwhile, Mages sacrifice what? they get Astral Belt + Galren, they only sacrifice FP and momentum (or start enchanted lol) then they get +16 stats, who is complaining about that? should mages also get no main bonus? because every other class also gets main bonuses.

While I have the belief that Ghost needs reworked, since it is one of the oldest class in the game, giving it main class stat bonus would be the first step, wanna know which one should be the next step?

2. Solution to people getting too many stats

This one, make rising game % based, every 10% HP lost, it should give 2% of the stats mentioned, at 50% it should give 2.5% more then another 2.5% at 25%, that would make 10%, assuming that the overall stat for people is 40 (Ikr is it not the softcap, but it is the average) at best, one could get 10 points for a single stat, one point more than the previous iteration, the trap? simple, now you have to level up stats more to get points, if you do not have the stats, you do not get the bonuses, that means you will get decent good stats if you actually want the stats, any other stat? they barely get points, what if someone gets 60 CEL? diminishing returns will do the job and anything after 60 will just have no meaningful impact.

Of course, this could mean a problem, builds with only Four stats aka SKI, CEL, LUC, GUI and VIT, will only get the stats they are asking for, if they get too much of any stats, diminishing returns will make it less impactful, on way too spread builds it will not be much of a problem, it is not like they have enough stats to get good stats from rising game anyway.

3. Some suggestions to low HP based things

A) Berserker shell is good, but Dev should add to it actual info about how much crit it gives, the description says nothing except that it gives critical for axes based in missing HP.

B) Red Cape should cure fear upon entering on immunity, I already tested it and it keeps fear as you are immune, also, to make the item more pickable, it should cure and make immune to hesitation upon entering less than 50% HP

C) Ghost Red Rain is pretty useless except for basic attack builds, the problem is, even in basic attack builds, people would rather get a way to deal AOE damage than pick this skill, why not add a effect similar to rebound, but this time, Deffense? in basic attack builds, rebound is hard to apply, so with this skill, you could apply red rain + rebound if you are too afraid of dying in Low HP.

D) Last Chance is useless in too many times that is supposed to save you, why not make it so it gives you one turn of immortality instead, but waste claret call on anyone that attacks you? this way you could probably pick someone that is not paying attention to you, but will not let you do much against people that are actually trying to do something to kill you.

E) Ghost needs a rework, yep, not too much of a secret, the class is way too old, why not make it an axes (scythes) based class for people that want to get damaged? Kensei is already sword based (More in Katanas, but more versatility should be given in this matter) also, the next duelist class hopefully will be a spear based one, Dragoon probably, so this would be a perfect opportunity to get the duelist weapon triangle!

Even as someone new to SL2, I can see that STR is not as competitive or splashable as most other stats. I can also see that discussion on STR has been a trend in this community for some time. With that in mind, I'll keep the actual suggestion brief, but follow up with an elaboration:

If your Battle Weight exceeds that of your attacker, then your chance to resist a knockdown effect is a percent equal to the difference in your Battle Weights.

In other words, let's say we have a Void Assassin sitting at 14 Battle Weight. He's using Cutthroat someone who has 45 Battle Weight. The difference between these two figures is 31, and so the Void Assassin's chance of knocking down his target with a critical Cutthroat (using the Break Down passive) has been reduced from 100% to 69%. Or you could say, the defender's chance to negate the effect is 31% because his Battle Weight is 31 greater.

The same check would be made for things like Pulling Shot, Heavy Tackle, Sky Chariot and so on. Conceptually, the idea here is that strong characters are brutish; they will not be brought to the ground by smaller and physically weaker enemies so easily. You could even throw in a stipulation similar to the evasion check between armor types, and further play with the likelihood of resisting knockdown.

In the above example, we used a difference of 31 Battle Weight. This equates to a 31% chance for the defender to negate knockdown. But let's throw in armor modifiers for fun.

Heavy Armor: 100% (31%)
Light Armor: 50% (16%)
Unarmored: 0% (0%)

So as you can see, wearing heavy armor would allow one to retain the full percent from this Battle Weight difference. Wearing light armor slightly penalizes your effective chance to negate, and wearing unarmored means that you can never negate knockdown no matter how high your Battle Weight is. This somewhat mirrors the evasion mechanic.


There are no doubt dozens of ways to make STR slightly better without breaking the game, but this is not one that I had seen anywhere. Curious to hear feedback.

Camps are fine as they are, they are fun little hang out locations for groups, that are just fine for a bit of casual RP. While it also invites people for casual ganks apperently, its otherwise rather save aswell, which is a good thing for Sigrogana to just be able to relax.

However, I think camps could be used as a bit more are just some tiny casual RP spots and could be improved alittle on even in these tiny spots.

Let's start with some issue I just find strange with camps or make little sense to me:

Quote:-Campfire: Campfires regenerate health and FP overtime. Thats good but...Why? There is literally basically no use for them in camps to do that, because the times you need this regen maybe is when you are in the middle of dungeoning. You aren't leaving a BDP to set up a camp to regen, cause by the time you are done, the BDP you were in is most likely gone. So while nice feature, kinda weird in its execution currently.

-Camp food: A bit better than the campfire in its execution. But similiar issues, just that you can do it before you go into a BDP and all is fine.

-You can currently not dig in camps, meaning some functions are not working as well like farming or setting up traps for decoration(pitfall mostly)

-Trap items in general are rather useless in dungeons, since you rarely have the time to set up, and some traps are actually "Expensive" to make.
Expensive in the sense that you need a very specific band, that you do not really find THAT often or can make otherwise.

-Minigame archery targets still don't work. Let me set up military camps and play my minigame, damm it.

-The fact that you have no way to just like, save your camp decoration for looking the same whenever you go camping. Making you redo everything everytime. Also when you just DCed in an unlucky moment after spending an hour decorating it! I swear, I cried.

-Camps are basically everywhere the same, while I understand the idea of them being save locations, I feel the game would benefit if you could open camps aswell for other purposes. like hunting.

Quote:-An Option to generally save the lay out of a Camp, for normal RP purposes. Having you not needing to redecorate it every time thanks to DC/Reboot/or whatever reasons.

-Having different regions, different kind of camp zones.And having the option to set up "Survival Camps" that are bigger and have wild life spawn within it on random (probably on hour change). This would give far more use to campfires healing part, give more reasons to hunt both plants and animals for crafting and can add a general "Survival life" kind of characters. It most likely also enable some more cool IC meetings.

-having the ability to dig in Camps for farming/setting up traps. This has both, cosmetic and gameplay reasons. It could also finally allow Tool making traps to expand to actual hunting skill, cause such a camp would give MUCH more chances and use to set this traps up to your favour than dungeons allow.

-Make archery target work for camps.

-"Survival camps" spawn different stuff in different region. So a survival camp ner Mallus might actually spawn Dullahans, near Manor maybe all sort of ghostly monsters. In Lordwain some ice wolves or ice worms or whatever they have in their wild life and Alstalsia? ohhh boi. Hardmode. but have also maybe unique plants grow in them and such that you would never find anywhere else.

-items dedicated to make the Survival camp more interesting, having maybe items that work like a little save zone (Monsters maybe not coming oh so many tiles near a campfire), having bait items that maybe increase spawn rate of monsters or set them to "Crazy" or generally just increase the mob size per encounter. More traps, that effects serval stuff from these mobs while out of combat, maybe even the drop rate of materials or what not.

-Maybe even traits and talents later down the line under Survival tree that makes this more interesting aswell. (Reuse of traps maybe, make traps more efficient, etc.)

Just a request, but can we get a hit chance added to autohits in the debug text box? This is mostly for testing purposes involving Evasion and Snake Dancer, even if its only after the actual hit itself.

I think this would be a good thing when testing certain autohits and seeing which bonuses to hit and which bonuses to evade apply, namely the percentile based ones, this would help further bug test things like Oracle's passive maybe always applying outside of 1 range against autohits and stuff.

Can pets get the updated descriptions, while still being able to customize it yourself? Like being able to upload a portrait still and all that stuff.

Quick disclaimer, relatively new player here so I don't know if this has been said much before, but;

The Magic Gunner class feels really out of place within the Archer discipline. Sure, it's an obvious match given the fact that it's basically a class tree dedicated to ranged weapons, but amongst these classes Mage Gunner has bugger all synergy amongst them.

With Archer, Arbalest and Ranger nearly every primary skill specifically restricts itself to bows only, leaving only a few odd Traps, Passives, and minor skills applicable to guns, with the only real notable skills worth taking being Cripple Arm & Leg.

Instead, Mage Gunner's best synergy tends to be across classes with the likes of Demon Hunter for its excellent Desperado and Leadstorm abilities for Guns, Tactician for its wide berth of support, and Mages to further improve their ability to exploit weaknesses, summon protection, or buff themselves further.

Now cross-classing is great, I love it as a thing you can do, but the other thing about MG is that it's a very expensive class to invest skill points in, especially if you want a large variety of ammo, but you can mitigate this via Destiny, but... Well this leaves you fairly screwed for a good sub-class given that none of them are in the Archer tree.

So yeah, I don't really have much more to say; what coukd be done? Maybe stick MG on the Mage Tree, maybe make Archer classes more gun supportive? I mostly just wanted to vocalize how odd Magic Gunner feels compared to other weapons and classes I've played.